General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Mansion]

So can i apply that to Red Mages then? I will now expect them to cast Vercures on the regular so that they're "Efficiently" using their toolkit.

I expect Summoners to hardcast Raises and spam Physik too, because I'm busy "efficiently" using my toolkit.
[...]
Also, the response to my sarcasm in the first two lines will no doubt be along the lines of 'No because the DPS aren't there to Heal'. And yet the Healer has to do the damage dealers job while also doing their own job or they're bad. OK

In analogy to "healers should DPS", that would be "DPS need to minimize damage taken" with Bloodbath, Second Wind, mitigation and that kind of stuff. It's just about being as efficient as you can doing extras out of your role. Healers have the most downtime of the three roles once they have reached what's expected from them (keeping people alive when you can).

I'm a pro DPS-healer, and I won't shout at a healer that occasionally casts a Cure / Benefic / Physic. It happens, it's part of how you adapt to a random situation. But sitting here doing nothing because there is no healing required, I do think that's being a dead-weight to the team, just like a DPS that does not know its rotation, or anyone not knowing basic fight mechanics 80 levels in the game.

In the end, in casual content there's no argument to have. A dungeon will remain a brain dead instance for everyone. But if healers had more interesting systems for their downtime (be it DPS, buff or else), it would make "pro" healers happier, and casual healers would not be pressured into it during a dungeon.

[Sylve]

I do think that's being a dead-weight to the team

And this right here is what disgusts me about the whole argument. Dead weight is someone who contributes nothing to the success of the run. AKA, someone off AFK in a corner.

Take a Healer who never casts damage spells. Run a dungeon. You finished it, right? With no complications? Right.
Now take a Healer who never casts a Heal. Run the dungeon. How far did you get? Not very far.
One of these is a dead weight. The other is a run of the mill Healer.

The entire point of a Healer is to keep the party alive. Anything you do beyond that basic task is a bonus to the party. Just like Dancers who use Shield Samba and Curing Waltz properly to lighten the load on the Healer, or a melee DPS using Feint and Bloodbath.
We don't scream at DPS for not using the more supportive buttons in their kits. We encourage their use, sure. But never to the disturbing degree that Healers get shat on over DPS.

A Healer who never damages is just as effective for the party in their primary role as a Healer who is comfortable and capable of pushing damage between Heals. If they weren't there to Heal you, You would be dead.

We should be encouraging people to find openings to do damage, not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

[Lersayil]

And this right here is what disgusts me about the whole argument. Dead weight is someone who contributes nothing to the success of the run. AKA, someone off AFK in a corner.

Take a Healer who never casts damage spells. Run a dungeon. You finished it, right? With no complications? Right.
Now take a Healer who never casts a Heal. Run the dungeon. How far did you get? Not very far.
One of these is a dead weight. The other is a run of the mill Healer.

The entire point of a Healer is to keep the party alive. Anything you do beyond that basic task is a bonus to the party. Just like Dancers who use Shield Samba and Curing Waltz properly to lighten the load on the Healer, or a melee DPS using Feint and Bloodbath.
We don't scream at DPS for not using the more supportive buttons in their kits. We encourage their use, sure. But never to the disturbing degree that Healers get shat on over DPS.

A Healer who never damages is just as effective for the party in their primary role as a Healer who is comfortable and capable of pushing damage between Heals. If they weren't there to Heal you, You would be dead.

We should be encouraging people to find openings to do damage, not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

To be fair to both sides... it would be more correct to say that they are being a deadweight 60% of the instance (if we estimate a 40% healing uptime, and I'm being generous if we assume lvl80).

Might not qualify for the label of "deadweight", but if a DPS or tank only did stuff 40% of the time in a duty, I would most certainly call them bad at their job.

[Mansion]

not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? We are not asking 99 parse or nothing. Nobody ever asked that actually. There's an in between.

The deadweight idea, I was more thinking about 8man normal raids or 24man raids, when I heal there. Usually, I end up healing as much (or more) than a bad co healer who doesn't use half of their kit, over heal, put shields that time out rather than get absorbed, compared to someone that just times right their healing resources, prioritizing oGCDs which are free and more powerful (and let you DPS...)

A WHM in a dungeon can pretty much heal with oGCD and Lilies, an AST could too. Not sure for SCH as I don't heal a lot with it, but I would not be surprised if it was the case.

[Sylve]

To be fair to both sides... it would be more correct to say that they are being a deadweight 60% of the instance (if we estimate a 40% healing uptime, and I'm being generous if we assume lvl80).

Might not qualify for the label of "deadweight", but if a DPS or tank only did stuff 40% of the time in a duty, I would most certainly call them bad at their job.

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

In full DF runs where its every man for himself with wild swings in individual skill, I can look at data across an entire non EX trial fight that puts the Healers outgoing damage making up only 25% of their total actions taken. And thats a Healer who was matching the Tank on damage.

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? We are not asking 99 parse or nothing. Nobody ever asked that actually. There's an in between.

The deadweight idea, I was more thinking about 8man normal raids or 24man raids, when I heal there. Usually, I end up healing as much (or more) than a bad co healer who doesn't use half of their kit, over heal, put shields that time out rather than get absorbed, compared to someone that just times right their healing resources, prioritizing oGCDs which are free and more powerful (and let you DPS...)

A WHM in a dungeon can pretty much heal with oGCD and Lilies, an AST could too. Not sure for SCH as I don't heal a lot with it, but I would not be surprised if it was the case.

And good job cutting off the most relevant part of the line you quoted.

That middle ground is precisely what I said the Healing community should be aiming to teach newcomers. But its not. Instead, we have people like you calling Healers dead weight for not doing DPS and threads all over the Healing forum complaining endlessly about Healers who dont, or minimally DPS.

For your line about 8/24s, You heal like that because of your experience and understanding that comes with it of those fights. You've memorized the dance and mapped out your responses.
Then you tell a newcomer or someone who is far less experienced with that content that they should be healing with oGCDs almost exclusively right off the bat?
No. You should be telling them to learn the fight and understand the most effective responses to each mechanic.
THEN you nudge them in the direction of spending the freed resources on damage.

For cryin' out loud, teach them to walk before you demand they run.

Also, as someone who plays all 3 Healers as 'mains' in 80 content, we vastly outgear Dungeons because the ilvl syncing is obscenely high compared to the minimum. Thats why they're so damned easy to heal. That and the clockwork nature of boss mechanics (That i've railed against for a long time).

[Enla]

You must be new in shb, because this was literally what scholar had in sb- several dots, a fairy that did her job well and less spam.
It was extremely fun and is the number 1 complaint about scholars this expansion, with number 2 being selene being deleted and number 3 being the fairy is no longer a pet but soaking your gcds

Honestly I've been desperately missing Selene of late and the utility she brought to even casual content. Eos was always better for healing, but there are several fights, particularly in Alliance Raids, where Selene's mass-esuna was a god send. (Rofocale in Rabanastre coming to mind immediately given how blind most parties tend to be when it comes to his leg hold traps. One click of a button and everyone would be instantly freed and it was frankly so satisfying to do.) Having Eos and Selene basically being reskins of one another now and with all of the faerie utility stripped away that isn't strictly healing focused just made the job all the more dull in my opinion. As did the removal of dot management which, while I was never a hardcore raider back in SB or prior, actually was pretty fun and engaging for me.

What makes me the most despondent however, is the knowledge that in spite of how fed up the general healer community has been with most of the changes made to their classes and the lack of appropriate balance to encounter design to compensate, it's likely only going to get worse in 6.0.

[Mansion]

And good job cutting off the most relevant part of the line you quoted.

That middle ground is precisely what I said the Healing community should be aiming to teach newcomers. But its not. Instead, we have people like you calling Healers dead weight for not doing DPS and threads all over the Healing forum complaining endlessly about Healers who dont, or minimally DPS.

Well, fair game as you just did it before, because we essentially agree and I don't get the virulence. Yes I am experienced, but no I won't hold anything against a new player because... they are new and I'm not a dick. It happened to me yesterday in the Malikah dungeon actually, and everything went well.

Regardless, I'm not talking about newcomers (and most forum rants either) or inexperienced healers, we are talking about healers "main" who have played and healed on FFXIV for a long time and STILL won't DPS because they don't WANT to, but argue that their position is receivable.

A new player that does not know the fight and / or the job: fine. They'll learn.
A rusty healer that knows basics but need some warm up : fine. They'll find their feet.
An experienced casual player approaching new content with caution : fine. They'll learn the fight.
A player joining Extreme or Savage PFs not doing any DPS : not fine.
An experienced player doing nothing useful during weekly stuff (raids and roulettes) : not fine in theory, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Do you get the distinction I'm trying to make? No one is expecting going from sprout to 99 DPS parse.

[Lersayil]

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

In full DF runs where its every man for himself with wild swings in individual skill, I can look at data across an entire non EX trial fight that puts the Healers outgoing damage making up only 25% of their total actions taken. And thats a Healer who was matching the Tank on damage.

I was actually thinking of casual DF. PF pugs can be hit or miss. And even then, I think 40% is still an overstatement given the massive amount of oGDCs we have (unless the group is an absolute disaster, in which case you have bigger issues than healer dps).

But to reiterate, I think its fair to expect someone to utilize at least ~75% of their GCD time usefully in any level of play. If that time is filled with useful healing then fine. But otherwise I expect them to sit on that dps button.

[Sylve]

I was actually thinking of casual DF. PF pugs can be hit or miss. And even then, I think 40% is still an overstatement given the massive amount of oGDCs we have (unless the group is an absolute disaster, in which case you have bigger issues than healer dps).

But to reiterate, I think its fair to expect someone to utilize at least ~75% of their GCD time usefully in any level of play. If that time is filled with useful healing then fine. But otherwise I expect them to sit on that dps button.

Of course. I've never disagreed with wanting Healers to be more active. I take issue with elements of the community (Which is a depressingly large element -_-) who unfairly attack Healers for not doing what they think a healer should be doing.

But you said it yourself, DF and PF is hit or miss. Sometimes you win and get that perfect group who nails every mechanic and sometimes you get that group that needs to be Raised 29 times (I counted, Never change E4 Titan).
Ours is the only Role whose primary activity is predicated on how good the Party is as a whole. Which is why i push for more unavoidable damage that isnt on a clock.
Tanks gonna Tank and DPS gonna kill. Doesn't matter how the rest of the party performs for them, what they need to do doesn't change. Not so for Healers. Every run is a difference experience sometimes, lol.

[Elladie]

I am an ABC healer. I always have been, even when CS was a thing and I was learning SCH and stance dancing made me nervous. If I'm not healing, I sneak in some DPS.

But this is what I don't get about everyone complaining about healers who stand around doing nothing. The only runs I have where I spend the majority of my time DPS-ing as a healer are runs I do with my Trusts. If I'm in a dungeon with people, the tank pulls loads, the DPS take damage, I count myself lucky if I manage to throw in any DoTs. I mean I Holy as much as I can, but that's only effective for mitigating damage the first few casts; after that everything gets a bit hair-raising. I really don't get all that much opportunity to use Art of War on SCH. Yeah on bosses I can DPS more, but I don't spend anything like 60% of my time with nothing to do (if I don't DPS). Even more so on AST.

So my question is, where are all these amazing dungeon runners that only need a minimum of healing and why are they never in my parties?