General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Seraphor]

I'm against healers having a complicated (more than 2 button) DPS rotation.
The problem here is, if the healer is half-way through their rotation, they have to cancel the rotation to react to healing.
This will create a whole other level of difficulty in optimising healer DPS, and would essentially mean doing two whole jobs at once. Or Healing itself will become entirely oGCD.

WHM already have 5 offensive skills. It doesn't need to use them in a complex rotation.
AST bolsters it's dps with buffs, and I think most AST players accept this reality of the job.
SCH's currently have the short straw in my opinion, and they do actually have room for some kind of simple DPS rotation. So 2-buttons. And I think this could be done with a simple proc triggered by Broil/Art of War:

Broil III Additional Effect: Has a 50% chance of proccing 'Broiling Ruin'
Broiling Ruin: Increases the potency of your next Ruin II by 80.

Basically, gives SCH a sporadic Dualcast effect, enabling use of Ruin II outside of movement or forced weaving windows. Makes for a more engaging DPS rotation, and by using that free time to squeeze in a clip-free Energy Drain, is a slight DPS gain.

Art of War Additional Effect: Inflicts targets with 'Tactical Target' effect.
Tactical Target: Lowers damage dealt by 5% and causes target to be struck by any Ruin II spell cast on another target at 75% potency. Duration: 10s. Effect is removed upon use of Ruin II.

Basically, turns Ruin II into a '200 potency + 75% (or 150) on remaining targets' AoE (Compared to AoW's flat 160 potency) when combo'd off of AoW. It’s a DPS gain on up to 4 targets, slight drop off after that, plus the bonus effect of a semi-Reprisal for up to 10s if you need to stop DPSing.

[Awha]

I'm against healers having a complicated (more than 2 button) DPS rotation.
The problem here is, if the healer is half-way through their rotation, they have to cancel the rotation to react to healing.
This will create a whole other level of difficulty in optimising healer DPS, and would essentially mean doing two whole jobs at once. Or Healing itself will become entirely oGCD.

Is that really a problem? I mean the main goal of healing currently is to limit the amount of gcds spent on healing, and some extra depth in optimizing healer dps would be probably be welcomed by many. What is wrong with asking healers to do a little more?

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I don't think anyone is asking to give healers actual combos. It's always been spamming an attack and keeping up more than one dot.

[Awha]

I don't think anyone is asking to give healers actual combos. It's always been spamming an attack and keeping up more than one dot.

I would like a mulit stage dps rotation for healers, though I am crazy since I also enjoyed old cleric stance.

[Deceptus]

I don't mind when healers DPS.

I object to attitudes about healer DPS when it's:

A) expected in all situations regardless of anything else that may be a consideration;
B) I have to play with healers who prioritize DPS over healing (and usually cause deaths/wipes).

I don't care if anyone wants to DPS as a healer, as long as healing is still their main priority.

I bring this up every time there's a debate about healer dps, but not all healers are created equal, and not all of us are comfortable dpsing all the time in every single situation--which should be fine--! but people get hellbent sometimes that a healer HAS to be dpsing or they're a "bad" healer, throwing literally every other bit of reasoning out the window for it.

Some healers aren't very well geared, some of their tanks are badly geared. Sometimes groups struggle with mechanics and the healer has to compensate (Every mechanic becomes a healer mechanic on a long enough time line!) and the healer dpsing just isn't always feasible, and I wish more people understood that.

If you're not always casting something every GCD you are a sub par player. Simple as that.

If you're casting heals when people are over 75-80%, you're a sub par player. Simple as that. Hell I'm comfortable at sub 40% but this value changes person to person.

If you're casting those heals out of spite for some self imposed "pure healer" mindset despite the game telling you multiple times that you should do damage when everyone is relatively healthy, you are indeed a bad player.

Quite simply: Healer is the only role in the game punished by WORSE gameplay (2 button DPS rotation) by playing WELL (healing efficiently).

[Lilseph]

You can very easily tune the mana

I wish you good luck balancing that for every single piece of content from levelling dungeons all the way to the ultimates, and also against Piety.

As for expert dungeon tuning: Once a new tier comes, the old tome gear can be bought for the scrip that are unlimited. So I see no reason whatsoever to not tune them to the target of the unaugmented old script gear. By halfing the cost of the old gear, newbies could very easily grind it out in the older dungeons, get ready for expert and expert could drop gear that was actually useful to them at the item level of the upgraded old tome gear.

I think you misunderstood. The point was that the reason expert dungeons are so easy is that a lot of players are severely overgeared beyond the minimum. What was asked was to increase the difficulty, which would consequently require the minimum ilvl cap to increase to compensate. The Developers always have to accommodate for players who just don't have the time for extended play sessions too. Having them blocked behind a significant grind wall is going to deter them from playing.

The only dangerous thing in there were undergeared tanks that thought: "imma awesome, imma pull EVERYTHING™"

Isn't that literally what you're asking for? To make it so that healers are constantly healing? Why is that a problem now? Genuinely curious.

Edit: To clarify, I'm interested to know why having undergeared tanks that make it be more dangerous be something that's a problem. If every dungeon operated the same way where the game treats every tank as undergeared, would that solve the issue? Again, just genuinely curious.

[Granyala]

I wish you good luck balancing that for every single piece of content from levelling dungeons all the way to the ultimates, and also against Piety.

The Developers always have to accommodate for players who just don't have the time for extended play sessions too. Having them blocked behind a significant grind wall is going to deter them from playing.

Isn't that literally what you're asking for? To make it so that healers are constantly healing? Why is that a problem now? Genuinely curious.

Edit: To clarify, I'm interested to know why having undergeared tanks that make it be more dangerous be something that's a problem.

1) It's a math problem. Low level content doesn't need razor sharp balance like Ultimate does. It's okay if it is a bit easier. Focus would be on balancing max level. Piety is not a problem, because it's quantity is quite limited. Very easy to make sure players don't reach OP territory via diminishing returns for stacking the stat.

2) Well, this is a point on which we simply disagree. Tome gear is incredibly easy to farm, esp if they were to cut it's cost in half. I'm ver much against balancing the majority of content in an MMO around virtually inactive people.

3) I merely pointed out what could be dangerous in the mentioned dungeon: an undergeared tank can pull more than he can handle and easily receive so much incoming damage that a healer can no longer keep up even with heavy heal spam. It's a danger that should be present in all properly tuned content and the fun lies in finding out what the particular tank and healer can handle. Now, obviously that includes pulling too much and wiping now and then, sth. that random groups are, for some irrational reason, very much afraid of. Don't ask me why.

[Morningstar1337]

3) I merely pointed out what could be dangerous in the mentioned dungeon: an undergeared tank can pull more than he can handle and easily receive so much incoming damage that a healer can no longer keep up even with heavy heal spam. It's a danger that should be present in all properly tuned content and the fun lies in finding out what the particular tank and healer can handle. Now, obviously that includes pulling too much and wiping now and then, sth. that random groups are, for some irrational reason, very much afraid of. Don't ask me why.

A mix of impatience, opportunity cost and entitlement would be my guess. The general opinion of dungeon and raids being easy content, as been attested to in the Tales form Duty Finder thread recently, mean that they are little more than an obligation to a reward they feel entitled too. Thus they dislike anything that delays them "inevitably" getting said reward (in those cases, tomestones and/or EXP and possiblygear/GC seals). Wipes being the obvious. It also means that they run multiples to maximize their rewards, which would be deterred if most of them were made to take 30-40 min each rather than around 15-20 min.s

The thing is, SE started catering to that mindset as early as 2.X when Pharos Sirius and the difficulty were a topic of debate and whn SE nerfed the dungeon (despite being in "Expert" roulette ATT AFAIK)

[Granyala]

Makes sense, pretty much the same is true in WoW.
I guess you do breed impatience if you make your players farm the content until they are sick and tired of it.

[Big_Oof]

I haven't been playing this game for long at all, but I have been maining WHM so I feel like I may have a few things to contribute to the conversation.

For me, the issue isn't about how many DPS buttons the job utilises. I could be satisfied with the two I use most of the time. The reason I'm not, is that it feels like the other 95% of my kit (you know, the healing part) never really (really) sees the light of day. Why does that trouble me, you might ask. Frankly, it's a matter of definition of the word "healer". In most other MMOs (that I've played), playing healer means you essentially juggle HP bars, and the game makes sure that's close to your full-time occupation. This game's definition of healer is different, and since this is the only game (again, to my experience) that employs such a definition, it's not unexpected for confusion to occur. The measure of how good a healer is in FFXIV seems to stem greatly from minimising the time spent actually healing. I'm not by any means implying people who enjoy this playstyle are wrong, it's just very different from what I am used to doing. Fyi, I've always gravitated towards support/healer classes no matter what MMO I play which, again, with the exception of this game, usually comes down to juggling HP bars.

So, when I say I'd be interested in playing something more akin to a "pure healer", I don't mean I want to throw a Cure I at the Tank's 90% HP and then go AFK for six seconds until I do it again. I do want to be busy. But I want to be busy healing. And not just in the top echelons of content, but mostly everywhere. Now I realise this is kind of a moot point, since regardless of what I want, that's not the kind of game this was designed to be. I'm slowly making my peace with that. There's other content I can enjoy since healing doesn't seem to be the iteration that I personally am attracted to. Neither do I expect the devs to suddenly revamp the gameplay to better suit me, considering this game already has a pretty established identity. To arbitrarily shift it in any major way would be a risky move, to say the least.

So, ultimately, the way I perceive this dichotomy in the healing community could be, largely, due to differing definitions of what the role is supposed to do. People who migrated from other games, like myself, could be looking for a type of gameplay that is not really supported here. On the other hand, people who have always played XIV or simply prefer its way of doing things, rightly see nothing wrong with how the healing is implemented and instead gravitate towards how the DPS aspect functions. I don't really see a solution that would magically fix this issue. Either what you're looking for is here, or it isn't and it's not ever going to be (barring any MAJOR encounter design shifts, which tbh I find improbable). It's up to each individual player to either come to terms with that, or not.