5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Lucy_Pyre]

Oh god.


It's PRETTY obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, but you are trying really hard to look like you do. As much as we complain that warrior is braindead easy(which is true) we can't deny that it is also one of the complex tanks when in comes to optimization as in fights you have to put a lot more thought than gnb. Like there might be a minor downtime and you'll have to think whether you have enough time to do another SP or you'll need to reapply SE. Or you constantly need to land certain attacks in buff windows, if that ninja is late on trick you have to adjust, if you had to use onslaught cause otherwise you would've lost gcd, you have to adjust your gauge management. All that while also being careful not to overcap. And that's why its more complex, you have to think and adjust and not blindly follow your rotation. It still doesn't make warrior any more interesting cause its rotation is piss easy and extremely boring. When all of the job's complexity comes not from its rotation but from outside factors like fights and other players it's a pretty bad design.
While gnb is straight forward: JUST PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. Yeah sometimes you need to change your opener and that means your rotation changes, but you STILL PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. But you know what? Its still more fun than WAR, cause its rotation is engaging, double weaving is engaging, high apm is engaging, having big numbers is engaging.

BUT gnb numbers should stay high as compared to other tanks their party support is not that great. OH WAIT warriors have the worst OT support skill, that sick 10% + health restored, which has any use ONLY IF you time it right, while you also sacrifice raw intuition that could've been used to power up another underwhelming(compared to other tanks) support ability "Shake it off". Unlike other tanks' abilities that provide mitigation for 15 secs, SIO can just pop and you're left with nothing for continuous raidwides. AND despite all that WAR is close to last in dps. So i heard you are all about that balance, and judging by warrior's clearly inferior party support it should absolutely be top dps tank. You wouldn't be against that, would you?

Actually the only thing that is obvious is that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. I mean, that's more or less to be expected as the vast majority of people anywhere aren't going to have any idea what they're talking about or understand a job well enough to be properly versed in speaking about it. Just that you're trying to argue that WAR is complex in and of itself proves that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and shows your outright bias.

[Khimer]

Actually the only thing that is obvious is that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. I mean, that's more or less to be expected as the vast majority of people anywhere aren't going to have any idea what they're talking about or understand a job well enough to be properly versed in speaking about it. Just that you're trying to argue that WAR is complex in and of itself proves that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and shows your outright bias.

Yikes. Just yikes.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Yikes. Just yikes.

Yeah, yikes all you want, it doesn't change anything. But please continue proving that you're biased in WAR's favor and care more about it being strong than all of the tanks being balanced properly against one another. That, and proving that you don't understand the job well enough to know anything about it.

Edit: It's very amusing to me that you don't seem to understand just how contradictory your own statements are, saying that WAR is "braindead easy" and "one of the more complex tanks" in literally the same sentence; two statements whose very meanings go against one another. Not only that, but you claim that WAR is "more complex" because of certain fights sometimes requiring you to refresh Storm's Eye at a different than standard time. You do realize that that is not remotely complex or even requiring any thought, right? You do the fight one time, realize that a mechanic forces you away from the boss at X time and that SE fall's off just before you can get back to the boss, and simply exchange your last SP prior to that with a SE. Is it optimization? Yes. Is it difficult, hard, or require even much in the way of brain activity? Not in the slightest. Avoiding overcapping gauge isn't complexity either, unless you have only one eye that functions at a passable level.

[Khimer]

Edit: It's very amusing to me that you don't seem to understand just how contradictory your own statements are, saying that WAR is "braindead easy" and "one of the more complex tanks" in literally the same sentence; two statements whose very meanings go against one another.

Didn't i explain this contradiction in the post above?

Not only that, but you claim that WAR is "more complex" because of certain fights sometimes requiring you to refresh Storm's Eye at a different than standard time. You do realize that that is not remotely complex or even requiring any thought, right? You do the fight one time, realize that a mechanic forces you away from the boss at X time and that SE fall's off just before you can get back to the boss, and simply exchange your last SP prior to that with a SE. Is it optimization? Yes. Is it difficult, hard, or require even much in the way of brain activity? Not in the slightest. Avoiding overcapping gauge isn't complexity either, unless you have only one eye that functions at a passable level.

How can you not see the point of the post? Do you even remember what you wrote in your previous posts or do you just reset every time? I go: "yeah warrior is more complex, because it has to keep a buff up and keep an eye on its gauge, something that gnb doesn't even have to care about" and you go: "duuuuhhhh, keeping SE up is super easy i don't even think about it, how can you call it difficult, duuuh". Which at this point you just enter subjective territory. Well to me double weaving, positionals, timing buffs, and keeping buffs none of that is difficult. If we go by that nothing is complex in this game. BUT THE POINT WAS THAT WARRIOR HAS EXTRA LAYER OF GAMEPLAY THAT IT HAS TO CARE ABOUT IN FIGHTS, EXTRA THONKING HAS TO BE DONE. HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE? GOD PLEASE STOP.

[Draemoris]

Didn't i explain this contradiction in the post above?


How can you not see the point of the post? Do you even remember what you wrote in your previous posts or do you just reset every time? I go: "yeah warrior is more complex, because it has to keep a buff up and keep an eye on its gauge, something that gnb doesn't even have to care about" and you go: "duuuuhhhh, keeping SE up is super easy i don't even think about it, how can you call it difficult, duuuh". Which at this point you just enter subjective territory. Well to me double weaving, positionals, timing buffs, and keeping buffs none of that is difficult. If we go by that nothing is complex in this game. BUT THE POINT WAS THAT WARRIOR HAS EXTRA LAYER OF GAMEPLAY THAT IT HAS TO CARE ABOUT IN FIGHTS, EXTRA THONKING HAS TO BE DONE. HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE? GOD PLEASE STOP.

I think you're the one that needs to stop at this point because everything regarding difficulty within this thread is entirely subjective. You're saying Warrior is the most complex but that is entirely untrue because just as *you* find it the most complex, others find it the least complex. There is no "extra thonking" that needs to be done unless *you yourself* require to do so. Just drop it and move on because you're clearly reaching a point where you're getting mad because someone else disagrees with you over a subject that is entirely opinionated.

EDIT: No, I am not kidding you. Take a deep breath, then sit back and understand that nothing you are saying about Warrior's complexity is factual. You can have an opinion about it, but you can't pass it off as fact simply because you see it as such.

[Khimer]

I think you're the one that needs to stop at this point because everything regarding difficulty within this thread is entirely subjective. You're saying Warrior is the most complex but that is entirely untrue because just as *you* find it the most complex, others find it the least complex. There is no "extra thonking" that needs to be done unless *you yourself* require to do so. Just drop it and move on because you're clearly reaching a point where you're getting mad because someone else disagrees with you over a subject that is entirely opinionated.

Where did i say it was MOST complex? Can you and your friend give up already?

[Draemoris]

Where did i say it was MOST complex? Can you and your friend give up already?

GNB is the *most* complex tank and you're putting Warrior above it. Thus you are stating it's the most complex tank. For someone who claims you gotta do extra thonking, you aren't really doing much thonking right now. Warrior has no extra "layer" of gameplay, it has the same level of gameplay as other jobs because they TOO have to adjust, same as you. Stop over complicating your job, Warrior is easily accessible, and fun to play. It doesn't NEED to be complex to be fun. Fun is entirely subjective, if you ENJOY GNB more because of the high APM, then go PLAY IT. Nobody is forcing you to sit on Warrior.

EDIT:

All my posts on this thread say how braindead warrior is rotation wise. Do you just not bother because there are a lot of letters or smthn? We are comparing warrior to gnb here. Hello?

Also cut out the condescending attitude. Insulting people because you're getting mad isn't helping your argument.

[Khimer]

There is no "extra thonking" that needs to be done unless *you yourself* require to do so. Just drop it and move on because you're clearly reaching a point where you're getting mad because someone else disagrees with you over a subject that is entirely opinionated.

All my posts on this thread say how braindead warrior is rotation wise. Do you just not bother because there are a lot of letters or smthn? We are comparing warrior to gnb here. Hello?

[millktea]

I think you're the one that needs to stop at this point because everything regarding difficulty within this thread is entirely subjective. You're saying Warrior is the most complex but that is entirely untrue because just as *you* find it the most complex, others find it the least complex. There is no "extra thonking" that needs to be done unless *you yourself* require to do so. Just drop it and move on because you're clearly reaching a point where you're getting mad because someone else disagrees with you over a subject that is entirely opinionated.

The difficulty is subjective as some find static rotations easier than a priority system. Some find priority to be easier than static

But he is correct that warrior is more complex due to its fluctuation in priority and its strictness with IC/charges locking down its rotation, as well as its need to adapt to what is on the table with fast thinking. Yes, you do need to think about what you're doing.

Also, not all opinions are baseless. Informed opinions exist. You dismissing him simply by calling it an opinion is weak. There is factual information that can be used under informed opinion. Also saying something is "untrue" is wrong, and truths don't necessarily need to be fact.

Warriors problem isn't a simple rotation. Its that its rotation is empty. It doesn't have enough buttons (no UC, no BZ, no ToB under UP buff, no duality/self- synergy. It's not active enough, and its toolkit is sparse. It does not do enough damage based on the rule of defensive utility
and offensive damage output.

The top damage dealers have little to no utility. That's why they hit so hard. The highest defensive or supportive utility jobs hit softer. This was why pld got nerfed and why war and drk got buffed in SB. Let's be real: warrior doesn't have an OT ability. They use it for themself.

Maintaining eye is still complexity, juggling gauge, and even juggling your infuriate proc to use to gapclose or upheaval, or gain gauge in general, but still execute IC is still complexity, management of charges that aren't gapclosers is still complexity. Warrior is simple to get into, but still has a higher ceiling to optimize. Warrior was harder pre 4.2. It wasnt that hard, as it took about 20s to fill gauge. That's all you really needed to know. But it still required effort.

You could argue its complex, but sure, you can argue its not. War is rather easy. So is gunbreaker. Its funny. If I say a tank is complex, I'd choose ShB pld. Warrior used to have it, if you used its full toolkit. But that's the problem. Se took it away and didn't return it . Its still kind of there... but its minimal...

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

If you think using Storm's Eye once every 30 seconds to keep the buff up and "managing gauge" (which is literally just "use Fell Cleave before Storm's Eye/Path if SE/SP would push you past 100") is complex then I really, really never want to see you try to optimize Summoner. Also, Warrior's rotation does not "fluctuate". It is almost entirely static, with the only thing changing is again if you need to replace SP with SE to keep uptime on the buff at a certain time in a fight. Other than that Warrior's rotation changes little if at all.

"Truths don't necessarily need to be fact" I'm sorry, but what? The only thing you're really correct about is the fact that "informed opinions do exist" which is true. Unfortunately, Khimer is about as far and away as is possible from having an informed opinion. If anything, his opinions come off as someone who has absolutely no idea how the job even functions at a high level of play, making entirely baseless claims about complexity and difficulty that are simply untrue.

-snip-

First of all, I never said any of what you put in that quote, so I would appreciate if you would cut out the blatant lying and two-faced nonsense.

Now that that is taken care of, three out of the eight buffs in the game don't affect WAR, and out of those three one of them has a severely reduced usefulness for tanks in general due to much lower budget of that particular stat, so it comes out to more around 2.5 out of 8 buffs that WAR cannot utilize.

Something else you seem to be completely not taking into consideration is that rDPS takes into account the player's personal adjusted DPS as well as DPS that was granted via raid buffs, and even when looking at rDPS Warrior is only around 250 DPS beneath Gunbreaker. Yes, it should be higher as I have already stated that it should be beneath Gunbreaker but above Paladin and Dark Knight, but 250 DPS is not this insurmountable margin that is going to be the difference between a group taking you on X job versus telling you to use Y or Z job instead.

You think that Warrior is not engaging to play. Once again, I and many others think the exact opposite. Also once again, you have said that you enjoy Gunbreaker. So I shall repeat myself and tell you to play Gunbreaker and leave my job alone.