5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

You speak as someone that has no idea how GNB works, and it's very obvious. Frankly, no, you're simply wrong. WAR should not be ahead of GNB in terms of DPS output, and the only way you could possibly argue that case is by being a WAR main who only cares about their job being top. See I'm different, I might main this job but I care about overall balance and not just the state of my own job, and WAR should be 2nd in terms of tank DPS, absolutely not first. On a side note, DRK, with how incredibly strong its personal mitigation currently is, deserves no more DPS than what it currently already does. At the most I could see if being in 3rd place for tank DPS, ahead of PLD but below WAR and GNB, but absolutely nothing higher than that. Its mitigation is so powerful that you cannot justify it being higher than the other tanks in terms of DPS, because when you're the best at everything that makes something blatantly overpowered.

One other thing, it has nothing to do with how complex I "think" GNB is, it has to do with the objective fact that I *know* GNB is more complex than WAR. Just because you're very obviously biased in WAR's favor doesn't change facts, and some people are actually capable of vying for overall balance between jobs even when the subject at hand involves their main job. Do I think WAR needs buffed and to do more damage? Absolutely I do. However, I do not think it needs to be the top dog of tank DPS because that was more or less GNB's entire schtick.

[Khimer]

See I'm different, I might main this job but I care about overall balance and not just the state of my own job, and WAR should be 2nd in terms of tank DPS, absolutely not first.

Oh god.

One other thing, it has nothing to do with how complex I "think" GNB is, it has to do with the objective fact that I *know* GNB is more complex than WAR. Just because you're very obviously biased in WAR's favor doesn't change facts, and some people are actually capable of vying for overall balance between jobs even when the subject at hand involves their main job. Do I think WAR needs buffed and to do more damage? Absolutely I do. However, I do not think it needs to be the top dog of tank DPS because that was more or less GNB's entire schtick.

It's PRETTY obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, but you are trying really hard to look like you do. As much as we complain that warrior is braindead easy(which is true) we can't deny that it is also one of the complex tanks when in comes to optimization as in fights you have to put a lot more thought than gnb. Like there might be a minor downtime and you'll have to think whether you have enough time to do another SP or you'll need to reapply SE. Or you constantly need to land certain attacks in buff windows, if that ninja is late on trick you have to adjust, if you had to use onslaught cause otherwise you would've lost gcd, you have to adjust your gauge management. All that while also being careful not to overcap. And that's why its more complex, you have to think and adjust and not blindly follow your rotation. It still doesn't make warrior any more interesting cause its rotation is piss easy and extremely boring. When all of the job's complexity comes not from its rotation but from outside factors like fights and other players it's a pretty bad design.
While gnb is straight forward: JUST PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. Yeah sometimes you need to change your opener and that means your rotation changes, but you STILL PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. But you know what? Its still more fun than WAR, cause its rotation is engaging, double weaving is engaging, high apm is engaging, having big numbers is engaging.

BUT gnb numbers should stay high as compared to other tanks their party support is not that great. OH WAIT warriors have the worst OT support skill, that sick 10% + health restored, which has any use ONLY IF you time it right, while you also sacrifice raw intuition that could've been used to power up another underwhelming(compared to other tanks) support ability "Shake it off". Unlike other tanks' abilities that provide mitigation for 15 secs, SIO can just pop and you're left with nothing for continuous raidwides. AND despite all that WAR is close to last in dps. So i heard you are all about that balance, and judging by warrior's clearly inferior party support it should absolutely be top dps tank. You wouldn't be against that, would you?

[Khimer]

LIVE LETTER is really close, and with most dps and healers kinda having taken care of (there are still rdm changes and mnks aren't happy, but im not sure if Mr Yoshida P considers mnk mains humans, which is a shame) tanks should be next on adjustment block. And god, i just really hope for ANY change to warrior.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Oh god.


It's PRETTY obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, but you are trying really hard to look like you do. As much as we complain that warrior is braindead easy(which is true) we can't deny that it is also one of the complex tanks when in comes to optimization as in fights you have to put a lot more thought than gnb. Like there might be a minor downtime and you'll have to think whether you have enough time to do another SP or you'll need to reapply SE. Or you constantly need to land certain attacks in buff windows, if that ninja is late on trick you have to adjust, if you had to use onslaught cause otherwise you would've lost gcd, you have to adjust your gauge management. All that while also being careful not to overcap. And that's why its more complex, you have to think and adjust and not blindly follow your rotation. It still doesn't make warrior any more interesting cause its rotation is piss easy and extremely boring. When all of the job's complexity comes not from its rotation but from outside factors like fights and other players it's a pretty bad design.
While gnb is straight forward: JUST PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. Yeah sometimes you need to change your opener and that means your rotation changes, but you STILL PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. But you know what? Its still more fun than WAR, cause its rotation is engaging, double weaving is engaging, high apm is engaging, having big numbers is engaging.

BUT gnb numbers should stay high as compared to other tanks their party support is not that great. OH WAIT warriors have the worst OT support skill, that sick 10% + health restored, which has any use ONLY IF you time it right, while you also sacrifice raw intuition that could've been used to power up another underwhelming(compared to other tanks) support ability "Shake it off". Unlike other tanks' abilities that provide mitigation for 15 secs, SIO can just pop and you're left with nothing for continuous raidwides. AND despite all that WAR is close to last in dps. So i heard you are all about that balance, and judging by warrior's clearly inferior party support it should absolutely be top dps tank. You wouldn't be against that, would you?

Actually the only thing that is obvious is that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. I mean, that's more or less to be expected as the vast majority of people anywhere aren't going to have any idea what they're talking about or understand a job well enough to be properly versed in speaking about it. Just that you're trying to argue that WAR is complex in and of itself proves that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and shows your outright bias.

[Khimer]

Actually the only thing that is obvious is that most of the people in this thread have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. I mean, that's more or less to be expected as the vast majority of people anywhere aren't going to have any idea what they're talking about or understand a job well enough to be properly versed in speaking about it. Just that you're trying to argue that WAR is complex in and of itself proves that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about and shows your outright bias.

Yikes. Just yikes.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Yikes. Just yikes.

Yeah, yikes all you want, it doesn't change anything. But please continue proving that you're biased in WAR's favor and care more about it being strong than all of the tanks being balanced properly against one another. That, and proving that you don't understand the job well enough to know anything about it.

Edit: It's very amusing to me that you don't seem to understand just how contradictory your own statements are, saying that WAR is "braindead easy" and "one of the more complex tanks" in literally the same sentence; two statements whose very meanings go against one another. Not only that, but you claim that WAR is "more complex" because of certain fights sometimes requiring you to refresh Storm's Eye at a different than standard time. You do realize that that is not remotely complex or even requiring any thought, right? You do the fight one time, realize that a mechanic forces you away from the boss at X time and that SE fall's off just before you can get back to the boss, and simply exchange your last SP prior to that with a SE. Is it optimization? Yes. Is it difficult, hard, or require even much in the way of brain activity? Not in the slightest. Avoiding overcapping gauge isn't complexity either, unless you have only one eye that functions at a passable level.

[Khimer]

Edit: It's very amusing to me that you don't seem to understand just how contradictory your own statements are, saying that WAR is "braindead easy" and "one of the more complex tanks" in literally the same sentence; two statements whose very meanings go against one another.

Didn't i explain this contradiction in the post above?

Not only that, but you claim that WAR is "more complex" because of certain fights sometimes requiring you to refresh Storm's Eye at a different than standard time. You do realize that that is not remotely complex or even requiring any thought, right? You do the fight one time, realize that a mechanic forces you away from the boss at X time and that SE fall's off just before you can get back to the boss, and simply exchange your last SP prior to that with a SE. Is it optimization? Yes. Is it difficult, hard, or require even much in the way of brain activity? Not in the slightest. Avoiding overcapping gauge isn't complexity either, unless you have only one eye that functions at a passable level.

How can you not see the point of the post? Do you even remember what you wrote in your previous posts or do you just reset every time? I go: "yeah warrior is more complex, because it has to keep a buff up and keep an eye on its gauge, something that gnb doesn't even have to care about" and you go: "duuuuhhhh, keeping SE up is super easy i don't even think about it, how can you call it difficult, duuuh". Which at this point you just enter subjective territory. Well to me double weaving, positionals, timing buffs, and keeping buffs none of that is difficult. If we go by that nothing is complex in this game. BUT THE POINT WAS THAT WARRIOR HAS EXTRA LAYER OF GAMEPLAY THAT IT HAS TO CARE ABOUT IN FIGHTS, EXTRA THONKING HAS TO BE DONE. HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE? GOD PLEASE STOP.

[Draemoris]

Didn't i explain this contradiction in the post above?


How can you not see the point of the post? Do you even remember what you wrote in your previous posts or do you just reset every time? I go: "yeah warrior is more complex, because it has to keep a buff up and keep an eye on its gauge, something that gnb doesn't even have to care about" and you go: "duuuuhhhh, keeping SE up is super easy i don't even think about it, how can you call it difficult, duuuh". Which at this point you just enter subjective territory. Well to me double weaving, positionals, timing buffs, and keeping buffs none of that is difficult. If we go by that nothing is complex in this game. BUT THE POINT WAS THAT WARRIOR HAS EXTRA LAYER OF GAMEPLAY THAT IT HAS TO CARE ABOUT IN FIGHTS, EXTRA THONKING HAS TO BE DONE. HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE? GOD PLEASE STOP.

I think you're the one that needs to stop at this point because everything regarding difficulty within this thread is entirely subjective. You're saying Warrior is the most complex but that is entirely untrue because just as *you* find it the most complex, others find it the least complex. There is no "extra thonking" that needs to be done unless *you yourself* require to do so. Just drop it and move on because you're clearly reaching a point where you're getting mad because someone else disagrees with you over a subject that is entirely opinionated.

EDIT: No, I am not kidding you. Take a deep breath, then sit back and understand that nothing you are saying about Warrior's complexity is factual. You can have an opinion about it, but you can't pass it off as fact simply because you see it as such.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Didn't i explain this contradiction in the post above?


How can you not see the point of the post? Do you even remember what you wrote in your previous posts or do you just reset every time? I go: "yeah warrior is more complex, because it has to keep a buff up and keep an eye on its gauge, something that gnb doesn't even have to care about" and you go: "duuuuhhhh, keeping SE up is super easy i don't even think about it, how can you call it difficult, duuuh". Which at this point you just enter subjective territory. Well to me double weaving, positionals, timing buffs, and keeping buffs none of that is difficult. If we go by that nothing is complex in this game. BUT THE POINT WAS THAT WARRIOR HAS EXTRA LAYER OF GAMEPLAY THAT IT HAS TO CARE ABOUT IN FIGHTS, EXTRA THONKING HAS TO BE DONE. HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE? GOD PLEASE STOP.

Okay, let me explain this to you in as simple a way as possible so that maybe, just maybe, you're capable of understanding. Gunbreaker's entire rotation/opener can change on a fight-by-fight basis in order to optimize for said fight. That is something that Warrior objectively does not have. Warrior is always the same; you pull with Tomahawk, use Infuriate to get the cooldown running, apply Storm's Eye, consume Nascent Chaos, and then either use your second Infuriate + Nascent Chaos and go into Inner Release, or go into Inner Release and then use your second Infuriate + Nascent Chaos. There is no variation to those two scenarios. Once said scenarios have ended Warrior's rotation falls into the same never-changing 1-2-3 pattern;

1. Keep Storm's Eye up at all times (barring 30s+ long downtimes)
2. Keep Upheaval on cooldown
3. Use Fell Cleave as necessary to avoid overcapping on gauge

And you do this same cycle endlessly until your Infuriate charges come back and Inner Release comes off of cooldown, at which point you do it all over again. This never changes, with the only alteration being certain points in bosses occasionally requiring you to replace a Storm's Path with a Storm's Eye just before a forced mechanical downtime so as to prevent the buff from falling off. That is not complexity, that is having the basic ability to see that your buff falls off when doing your standard rotation and simply alter a singular ability use. It is optimization, but not a complex or difficult one. Warrior is not hard, nor is it complex, and it frankly amuses me that someone who is very clearly unskilled at the job and doesn't understand it is attempting to argue with me about it being such.

[Draemoris]

Oh god.


It's PRETTY obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, but you are trying really hard to look like you do. As much as we complain that warrior is braindead easy(which is true) we can't deny that it is also one of the complex tanks when in comes to optimization as in fights you have to put a lot more thought than gnb. Like there might be a minor downtime and you'll have to think whether you have enough time to do another SP or you'll need to reapply SE. Or you constantly need to land certain attacks in buff windows, if that ninja is late on trick you have to adjust, if you had to use onslaught cause otherwise you would've lost gcd, you have to adjust your gauge management. All that while also being careful not to overcap. And that's why its more complex, you have to think and adjust and not blindly follow your rotation. It still doesn't make warrior any more interesting cause its rotation is piss easy and extremely boring. When all of the job's complexity comes not from its rotation but from outside factors like fights and other players it's a pretty bad design.
While gnb is straight forward: JUST PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. Yeah sometimes you need to change your opener and that means your rotation changes, but you STILL PRESS EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN. But you know what? Its still more fun than WAR, cause its rotation is engaging, double weaving is engaging, high apm is engaging, having big numbers is engaging.

BUT gnb numbers should stay high as compared to other tanks their party support is not that great. OH WAIT warriors have the worst OT support skill, that sick 10% + health restored, which has any use ONLY IF you time it right, while you also sacrifice raw intuition that could've been used to power up another underwhelming(compared to other tanks) support ability "Shake it off". Unlike other tanks' abilities that provide mitigation for 15 secs, SIO can just pop and you're left with nothing for continuous raidwides. AND despite all that WAR is close to last in dps. So i heard you are all about that balance, and judging by warrior's clearly inferior party support it should absolutely be top dps tank. You wouldn't be against that, would you?

You can't really claim that warrior is difficult because it has to do things every other job in the game also has to do. I really think you should probably just reroll since Warrior isn't doing it for you, if you can't make it work, that doesn't suddenly mean it has an issue. It could definitely use a boost, but you're making it sound way worse than it actually is and are claiming it's *also* complex, which is factually incorrect. There is nothing complex about warrior itself, adjusting isn't specifically a "warrior" thing, every job has to adjust for mechanics and downtime.

EDIT: "that's why its more complex, you have to think and adjust and not blindly follow your rotation." Nobody should blindly follow their rotation. Your entire argument can be summed up with "I have to do things everyone else does in order to succeed" and you would be correct, you do and I don't see the issue with needing to adjust the way you play to meet the requirements of the content. Literally everything you're complaining about can be applied to other jobs and they get by just fine.