5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Hierro]

No. IC does not fix anything. Even if it could be available for 60s party buffs. That is only trick attack.

Every 60 seconds does not necessarily mean "only buffs which have a 60s cooldown." It refers to any buffs that occur at 1 minute intervals after the opener. For example, thanks to IC, we can take advantage of not only of every TA, but chain strategem and embolden as well, for those 120 timers wouldn't naturally line up with IR until the 6 minute mark.

Before, if an encounter were to end just before our IR coming up, we would cry in disappointment. Now, IC lessens that pain significantly.

[Nedkel]

Paladin is arguably just as simple as Warrior and does a fair margin more DPS, so that argument holds no weight.

War is simplier, you could have al necessary skills in 8 keys

[Lucy_Pyre]

War is simplier, you could have al necessary skills in 8 keys

This is just flat out false information. 8 keys you say? Well, let me list off all of the "necessary" skills on the job.

Basic weaponskill combo - 4 keys (both combo finishers)
FC - 5 keys total
IR - 6 keys total
IC - 7 keys total
Upheaval - 8 keys total
Onslaught - 9 keys total

Just on the single target DPS abilities alone we're already above your "8 keys" arbitrary limit, and we haven't even gotten into AoE abilities, personal mitigation, or raid mitigation.

Now if we look at PLD

Basic weaponskill combo - 4 keys total (both combo finishers)
Atonement - 5 keys total
Spirits Within - 6 keys total
FoF - 7 keys total
Req - 8 keys total
Holy Spirit - 9 keys total
Conf - 10 keys total
CoS - 11 keys total
Intervene - 12 keys total

So, the only differences here in their DPS abilities is a total of three keys, with Req -> Holy S -> Conf working more or less identically to how IR -> FCx5 works. The jobs are nearly identical in their level of complexity, and while PLD has a very very slight edge in being marginally more complex, let's not kid ourselves to act like it's some super complex job.

[Nedkel]

See? Pld has more buttons to manage and his rotation i waaay longer and more strict than warrior, you have just proved my point. Pld also has some small optimisation tricks to maintain dot dmg in fof buff all the time.

[Lucy_Pyre]

All I did was prove your point wrong. The amount of button presses is near identical, and half of PLD's rotation is straight up the same as WAR's with the only exception is that PLD has Conf as a sort of "finisher" for Req, but at the core of it Req = IR as the functionality is identical. Frankly almost every job has a strict rotation when you press it to the highest degree, so that point is absolutely moot.

[Nedkel]

All I did was prove your point wrong. The amount of button presses is near identical, and half of PLD's rotation is straight up the same as WAR's with the only exception is that PLD has Conf as a sort of "finisher" for Req, but at the core of it Req = IR as the functionality is identical. Frankly almost every job has a strict rotation when you press it to the highest degree, so that point is absolutely moot.

Pld has 2 damage windows, war has one, pld needs to manage mp by pushing as manu attonments as he could.
Pld needs to know which one should he start and how should he start and it varies depending on the content or number of enemies, war rotation is set in stone and even aoe and single target does not differ to each other.
Pld has bigger CPM on average than war.
More buttons to press is still more buttons.
In tanks environment those differences are huge deal. They are different and their dynamics are different and ifs also a reason why pld is praised so much, bcs he is more fun to play.

[millktea]

Static jobs like gunbreaker aren't more complex than that. It's close to HW pld with some ogcds.

Yoshida exclusively stated that a jobs difficulty does not determine its dps output. Damage output is balanced based on UTILITY, not COMPLEXITY, so no, gunbreaker shouldn't be outdoing warrior, and paladin absolutely shouldn't be outdpsing war either. That's how this game works. Both still have more than war.

Gunbreaker, you spam everything on cooldown. Wars rotation is purely based on the fight so its always changing, the party comp, and how much uptime/downtime, and the speed of the kill. Gunbreaker is static.

Ninja is way more complex than monk or bard, and last I checked, its not top. Mch is easy af now, and it's a top damage output. Gunbreaker is very straightforward. Warrior is too, but not nearly as much as gnb, there's not much derailment from that train. the weaving isn't complex nor is it difficult. You do you one combo, you get a cartridge. You spend it. When NM is up, you hit that combo (no change, its just another combo. You execute it the same). Its the same thing. You just hit some ogcds around it (war does too). Its base is no different than warrior. If anything, its easier. Gauge management is harder than just doing one combo = one big hit. In fact, keeping eye up, managing infuriate charges/IC is harder than what you're describing. For example, say leviathan jumps, a war has to make sure to reapply eye at the last second to make sure it lasts a full downtime session, as well as not overcap on gauge when coming back to the reapplication and then understand that buffs are coming back up, and you need to IR during this point, so you better not be capped on infuriate charges nor waste an IC. Another example is knowing if popping infuriate even just for gauge is worth losing the IC based on the duration of downtime. Gnb? Just make sure you have at least ONE CARTRIDGE. Warrior requires more quick thinking and proactive play than gunbreaker. War has to think more about when to land IC under a buff or using nascent, gnbs rotation naturally lines up with every buff, no thinking required. Healing? Just have uptime and click the Aurora button. So by that alone, war should be higher, not gnb. And if you think continuation makes it more difficult, that's funny, because tbh, its just dark arts. And I wouldn't consider continuation to be a part of its base level. You just weave it between your gcds. A lot of buttons doesn't make it more complex.

You can do your timings correctly, and still get screwed over (and yes, not make the mistakes you stated). The window to execute it is very tight and if its not executed, it's severely more punishing than any other tank. That's the point. The window of opportunity is too tight. Gunbreaker is very simple. Its just new and unfamiliar with a lot of buttons.

[millktea]

War rotation is not set in stone. Its dependent very much so on the fight and comp. As long as you are doing plds standard rotation, there is hardly any mp management. It isn't dark knight. You don't really need to think as much as you are claiming.

TBH, paladin isn't popular due to the reasons you said, that is only somewhat true after all the tanks got disemboweled. Its popular more so due its aesthetic. Pld also took things from the other tanks. People really like swords and sword and shield over a great axe. Most don't find greataxes cool. Its also flashier and more gaudy (lesser than dark, but still there). War is very grounded and is animations are relatively mediocre. They don't try with warrior. Most armor and weapons? Plds tend to be better than war. Glamour is everything. I actually find plds animations to be pretty boring. HW pld was very boring and it was TERRIBLE, and yet, it was the most played tank, I'm sure. It is true that many warriors are complaining about their lack in buttons, which is an all time low right now

[Lucy_Pyre]

Pld has 2 damage windows, war has one, pld needs to manage mp by pushing as manu attonments as he could.
Pld needs to know which one should he start and how should he start and it varies depending on the content or number of enemies, war rotation is set in stone and even aoe and single target does not differ to each other.
Pld has bigger CPM on average than war.
More buttons to press is still more buttons.
In tanks environment those differences are huge deal. They are different and their dynamics are different and ifs also a reason why pld is praised so much, bcs he is more fun to play.

Paladin has absolutely zero mana "management". The only "management" of mana you have to do is to make sure you regenerate it all between the time that your magic combo ends and Req comes off CD, so if you count simply doing your rotation as normal mana "management" then sure, I guess?

-snip-

Did you seriously just say that MCH is a "top damage output"? You uh, might wanna double check on your facts there friend, cuz that ain't it chief.

As for the rest; Gunbreaker is more complex than the other tanks in every sense of the word, and there is a lot more optimization on a per-fight basis that that job is capable of doing than the others. Just because you always use Gnashing, Blasting, etc on CD doesn't change the fact that GNB is objectively more complex than WAR, and regardless of what Yoshida said on it I personally don't believe that WAR should do more DPS than GNB. As for WAR, no its rotation isn't really fight dependent at all. The only thing that will really change is whether you do IC -> IR -> IC or IC -> IC -> IR. Sure, certain things may vary depending on specific fight downtimes (Hades EX being a great example for this, as every phase is relatively short so you often get to skip significant portions of the downtime sections of your rotation) but that does not necessarily change your rotation in and of itself. You get your Infuriate charges and IR on cooldown and once that is done simply do your basic combo while keeping Upheaval on CD, maintaining Storm's Eye, and using FC as necessary to avoid gauge overcap. WAR rotation is only "dynamic" in the sense that you will use those overcap-avoiding FC's at differing points in different fights, but that is not changing the rotation.

Edit: Just for clarity's sake on MCH and its "top damage output". MCH's ranking is as follows.

Alexander - 10th place out of all 10 DPS jobs (aka last)
Savage - 8th place
Extreme - 7th place

[millktea]

Every 60 seconds does not necessarily mean "only buffs which have a 60s cooldown." It refers to any buffs that occur at 1 minute intervals after the opener. For example, thanks to IC, we can take advantage of not only of every TA, but chain strategem and embolden as well, for those 120 timers wouldn't naturally line up with IR until the 6 minute mark.

Before, if an encounter were to end just before our IR coming up, we would cry in disappointment. Now, IC lessens that pain significantly.

Im well aware if ICs usage and that its meant to provide an opportunity to hit damage outside of IR, but you clearly didn't understand as the point you were making is what I was describing. I was referring to any buff that could come up during a 60s window. You also don't understand what Chain Stratagem is to IC and IR. They do not work under chain.

Chain increases the crit rate by 10%, but IRs and ICs crit rate is already 100% as its GUARANTEED. No chain, no litany, no battle voice. Embolden was brought up by me previously. Embolden also lines up with brotherhood and IR, so these one of the few buffs war can use IC on. Embolden and brotherhood increase physical damage dealt, while trick increases targets damage taken., which is why warrior can use these. The others only boost rate, but this doesn't matter when your rate is 100%.

But it's ok. You can use wet noodle cleaves on those useless buffs tho. Too bad you don't really do damage outside IR and IC. Keep crying. And yes, I'm well aware you can save IC to end the battle with it. I do it.