5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Khimer]

Except for the part where you have debunked nothing and, in fact, have only proven how little you understand both of the jobs you speak of. You are objectively incorrect and it really is that simple, not that I'm surprised that you can't accept that given that everything I have seen more or less has proven my initial assumptions to be correct.

You gotta be trolling at this point.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Does job "complexity" even matter? To what extent? Can you even measure or define it, consistently?

[Lucy_Pyre]

Yeah and entirely objective point is that warrior needs to get rid of Direct+Critical hits. Yet you still defend it. What does that say about you? Everything you described you like can be done way better, and was done better before, so you probably joined post 4.2. Then why are you so adamant to defend it if you haven't even tried?

No, there is nothing objective about it. See, there's something you obviously don't seem to understand, and that is the fact that not every job needs to have identical damage profiles nor do their damage-increasing buffs need to function the same as one another. Variation is the spice of life, as they say, and the way Warrior's damage profile works out is unique to it. Guaranteed direct critical hits as its primary damage source is something that no other job has, and there is nothing wrong with that. Let those who enjoy that aspect of the job for their own various reasons enjoy it. If you are so desperate to play the "old" Warrior, well, current Dark Knight is more or less that. You want Warrior without guaranteed direct crits? Go play Dark Knight because Delirium is exactly what Inner Release would be if they removed that aspect of it. Now of course there is an entire discussion to be had about Dark Knight, and I agree with many others that Delirium should be changed to something else as it's currently just "Inner Release-lite" which is a bit less interesting than what it could potentially be, but I digress. You don't like what Warrior is and has become, which is unfortunate for you. I, and many others, however, do enjoy what Warrior is and, judging by the fact that SE didn't change how Inner Release worked with Shadowbringers (in fact, only reinforcing on it by adding Inner Chaos/Chaotic Cyclone) I think it's safe to say that they are more leaning in favor of my camp's position than yours. However, again, you have already stated that you enjoy Gunbreaker far more than Warrior which as I said previously is wonderful for you. But instead of sitting here complaining about Warrior perhaps you should, I don't know, go play the job that you clearly have a preference towards. You keep to yours and I'll keep to mine.

[Khimer]

Does job "complexity" even matter? To what extent? Can you even measure or define it, consistently?

That's the big debate. The approach i was going with, was to compare 2 tank jobs: gnb and war. And define which one has to do extra to perform optimally, pay extra attention and stuff like that. So i came to the conclusion that warrior is more complex when it comes to optimizing in a fight than gnb, cause while doing its extremely easy rotation warrior also has to keep an eye on damage buff and job gauge. While gnb only needs to stick to its rotation and press things on cooldown. Apparently they don't agree with it, and i've yet to hear anything cohesive about it.

[Lucy_Pyre]

That's the big debate. The approach i was going with, was to compare 2 tank jobs: gnb and war. And define which one has to do extra to perform optimally, pay extra attention and stuff like that. So i came to the conclusion that warrior is more complex when it comes to optimizing in a fight than gnb, cause while doing its extremely easy rotation warrior also has to keep an eye on damage buff and job gauge. While gnb only needs to stick to its rotation and press things on cooldown. Apparently they don't agree with it, and i've yet to hear anything cohesive about it.

I have proven that stance of yours wrong multiple times now with objective facts. But sure, go tell any skilled GNB main that WAR is more complex than their job. I'm sure they won't laugh in your face.

[Khimer]

No, there is nothing objective about it. See, there's something you obviously don't seem to understand, and that is the fact that not every job needs to have identical damage profiles nor do their damage-increasing buffs need to function the same as one another. Variation is the spice of life, as they say, and the way Warrior's damage profile works out is unique to it. Guaranteed direct critical hits as its primary damage source is something that no other job has, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Except it cucks warriors from half the raid buffs, and prevents you from optimizing damage on other tanks with determination melds. I don't know how many times i have to sat that, but THAT'S A BAD DESIGN. Staple like that cannot continue. Also warrior was kind of unique having 50% attack power buff that pacified you for 5 seconds after its duration, which was 20 second and not pesky 10, it was unique yes, i even enjoyed it, but they changed it, because it wasn't very good from optimization point. SO applying the same logic they should change IR now and remove DCrits.

[Khimer]

I have proven that stance of yours wrong multiple times now with objective facts. But sure, go tell any skilled GNB main that WAR is more complex than their job. I'm sure they won't laugh in your face.

Im a SKILLED gnb main at this point and, frankly, im not laughing. I do way more damage on gnb than on warrior and I DON'T EVEN HAVE TO THINK, that anecdote alone should prove everything i said.
Wait, have YOU even played gnb?

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

There's nothing "bad design" about it. If you want an omnitank set you will always lose some of the stat optimization on every tank, and this won't change even if they removed direct crits from Warrior because all of the tanks at BiS want slightly different SkS tiers from one another, and unless each other tanks BiS have a lot of alternate pieces from one another (one using Edengrace chest + necklace, another using Augmented Deepshadow of those same pieces being a theoretical example) then you will always lose some minor amount of "optimal" DPS from some of your tanks, it's simply the nature of sharing the same gear. However, you are significantly overestimating how much DPS is lost on the non-WAR tanks by switching out Direct Hit melds for Determination, as it's actually not a huge loss. It's a loss to be sure, but a relatively minor one, and one that will absolutely not stop you from performing at a high level presuming the person piloting the job is capable of doing it already.

Secondly, saying that Warrior is "cucked out of half of the raid buffs" is a flat out lie. Let's list the raid buffs and what they do, shall we?

Scholar - Chain Strategem: Increases crit rate on applied target - WAR: X
Dragoon - Battle Litany: Increases party crit rate - WAR: X
Bard: - Battle Voice: Increases party direct hit rate - WAR: X
Monk - Brotherhood: Increases party physical damage - WAR: Y
Ninja - Trick Attack: Increases flat damage target takes - WAR: Y
Summoner - Devotion: Increases flat damage party deals - WAR: Y
Dancer - Technical Finish: Increases flat damage party deals - War: Y
Red Mage - Embolden: Increases physical damage party deals, diminishing over time - WAR: Y

So, we can see here that well over half of the game's raid buffs are applicable to Warrior, around 2/3 of them, including Technical Finish and Trick Attack which are both extremely strong. Not to mention that the Monk's Brotherhood has an identical cooldown to the Warrior's Inner Release, meaning that the two will always be used in conjunction with one another due to natural alignment, making a Monk especially valuable to a Warrior player. Additionally, Battle Voice is less powerful and important for tanks than DPS as even if a tank player doesn't play Warrior, and thus slots Direct Hit Rate into their melds, our DH rates will be naturally significantly lower than that of DPS due to the inability to roll DHR on our gear, which significantly lessens the value and strength of that party buff for tanks.

Edit: I forgot Embolden, another buff that Warrior does benefit from. Further diminishing your point.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Im a SKILLED gnb main

Uh-huh, sure bub.

[shao32]

WAR and DRK both jobs don't have a optimization sub-channel on the balance discord where all the theorycrafters and experts tend to gatter due how brain-dead are both jobs this expansion while PLD and GNB do have such sub-channels, that alone should be a proof about how stupid are current WAR and DRK gameplay right now.

i personally consider both jobs the most easy jobs of the game right now for my disgrace (r.i.p DRK) and while tanks in general are a joke the diference on complexity is like night and day betwen PLD/GNB vs WAR/DRK when you understand how they work, still depends a bit of the person too since some have more easy time playing strict rotations while others find way more easy priority systems or resource management for example, but saddly this last one doesn't exist anymore.

raid support

don't miss RDM embolden ^^