Limited Job #2: Beastmaster

[Kikoten]

I am against Limited Jobs.

From a creative standpoint, it's an interesting concept, and I'm glad to see SE pursuing new endeavors. It gives me hope for the future of the game, that they're willing to try new things.

Coming from WoW, when I see special jobs--which, by the way, that's what I feel they should have called the Blue Mage: (Specialized Job), not (Limited Job)--I expect to see something crazy good and insanely fun, like the Death Knight was in WoW when it first came. Blue Mage could have been molded to fit as a fully-functioning job in the FFXIV universe, and I've long since gotten the feeling that SE implemented it ONLY because of demand, and not because they truly wanted to. Heck, they even playfully (?) added in a tooltip at the start of Stormblood, something along the lines of, "May it help you forget about Blue Mage."

My reason for taking a stance against limited jobs is because I desire to play a DoW/DoM job with equal access to all DoW/DoM-related content, including the level cap. I cannot put into words the high hopes I had when BLU was first announced, and how they were quickly dashed when I saw that they wouldn't have the same access to the full aspect of the game as other jobs. That said, Limit Jobs do make for great pastime on days you don't want to do anything else. I empathized with that on the first week of BLU, and then I just forgot about it entirely.

Furthermore, I feel that limiting a great job such as Blue Mage, and any other jobs that may be in the works), is also an insult to the fan base. What if any of the jobs we currently have came up as (Limited)? A limited Dragoon? A limited Paladin? A limited X, Y, Z? Sorry, but no. That is a putrid and disgusting thought.

Please, Square Enix, reconsider (Limited Job). It's not good for FFXIV.

[Lambdafish]

My reason for taking a stance against limited jobs is because I desire to play a DoW/DoM job with equal access to all DoW/DoM-related content, including the level cap. I cannot put into words the high hopes I had when BLU was first announced, and how they were quickly dashed when I saw that they wouldn't have the same access to the full aspect of the game as other jobs. That said, Limit Jobs do make for great pastime on days you don't want to do anything else. I empathized with that on the first week of BLU, and then I just forgot about it entirely.

I think your point shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what BLU is trying to be (which is the devs fault, not yours). You see it as a DoM when actually it isn't and never should have been. One critique I have seen of BLU is simply in how it is named and presented, instead of being a "limited job" it would be categorised as a Disciple of Knowledge, completely separate from battle classes, and seen as an alternative activity like DoH/DoL, with the focus being a hybrid of battle/collecting. If we are calling BLU limited for not being able to raid, should we also call ALC limited because it made CHM a crafter not a DoM job?

BLU is not limited, BLU is different, that is the key difference that this change makes. BLU can do all the dungeons and raids within its level and has an incentive to, and there is meaningful content built around that idea, it just isn't mixed in with the other jobs, because it isn't the same Discipline as them, it is separate content.

Making BST a DoK rather than a DoW would only enhance the experience that BLU was trying to create, and would be really healthy for the game.

[Wildsprite]

~snip~

I think this is brilliant. I think they should definitely put BLU and whatever else in DoK rather than calling them limited. that would help with the misunderstandings.

[jon041065]

I think this is brilliant. I think they should definitely put BLU and whatever else in DoK rather than calling them limited. that would help with the misunderstandings.

Still wouldn't change that people would want to play those jobs in the full game. No problem with there being content like what you're talking about but there are plenty of players that would not be happy with these jobs being ONLY that type of content.

[Lambdafish]

Still wouldn't change that people would want to play those jobs in the full game. No problem with there being content like what you're talking about but there are plenty of players that would not be happy with these jobs being ONLY that type of content.

What would BLU look like as a full job? I'm sure that idea you have in your head can still be implemented under another name. CHM most likely won't be called CHM because ALC exists, should we condemn ALC as "not the CHM we asked for" because it's a crafter? No, we will get the CHM we want in the form of Salve maker. People want CHM because of the gameplay that it can bring to the game, BLU already emulates the iconic gameplay of BLU in the best way it can as a collection job.

BLU is not limited, it has dungeon running, primal farming, raiding, skill collecting, and solo content that it can do. They might not be shadowbringers raids or primals, but BLU has given new life to old content and made it challenging and interesting again. It's not perfect, but add in a BLU only roulette, PotD (which can't currently be done due to technical limitations, despite dev interest), PF QoL, and possibly the ability to do NG+, and BLU has just as much value, if not more than regular battle jobs.

[ReiMakoto]

What would BLU look like as a full job? I'm sure that idea you have in your head can still be implemented under another name. CHM most likely won't be called CHM because ALC exists, should we condemn ALC as "not the CHM we asked for" because it's a crafter? No, we will get the CHM we want in the form of Salve maker. People want CHM because of the gameplay that it can bring to the game, BLU already emulates the iconic gameplay of BLU in the best way it can as a collection job.

BLU is not limited, it has dungeon running, primal farming, raiding, skill collecting, and solo content that it can do. They might not be shadowbringers raids or primals, but BLU has given new life to old content and made it challenging and interesting again. It's not perfect, but add in a BLU only roulette, PotD (which can't currently be done due to technical limitations, despite dev interest), PF QoL, and possibly the ability to do NG+, and BLU has just as much value, if not more than regular battle jobs.

It's not emulating the party support aspect in normal parties which is a persistent identity of blu mage, despite having a collection aspect, it was still a party job that could run with other jobs as a support, it has about the same collection factor as summoner has in some games. Also your value point is purely subjective, for many it has far less value than normal jobs and even crafters/gathers. As to what it would look like as a full job? Well we can already see that with DPS mimicry's dps rotation which it is doing 90% of any raid, a quirky rotation that could have some party support mixed in, if they would implement it as a new soul crystal it could be Blue Battlemage (like how red mage in ff12 is called red battlemage), but there should be no reason why the limited portion and full game portion of blu couldnt coexist as a menu option

[Lambdafish]

It's not emulating the party support aspect in normal parties which is a persistent identity of blu mage, despite having a collection aspect, it was still a party job that could run with other jobs as a support

Thats just how those games work. BLU's "support" identity isn't the same as what support means in this game. To be more accurate, BLU is about casting debuffs like slow, mini, and doom, and utilitising elemental attacks. You will notice that the masked carnival was built directly around that idea.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...nal_Fantasy_V)

Well we can already see that with DPS mimicry's dps rotation which it is doing 90% of any raid, a quirky rotation that could have some party support mixed in, if they would implement it as a new soul crystal it could be Blue Battlemage

BLU doesn't have a set rotation, it has key skills that are useful like moonflute, song of torment, and various aspected attacks based on libra. What you are asking is to strip away BLUs toolkit down to the 5 skills that are "mandatory". Then what? Do you get white wind? Do you get mighty guard? Do you get bad breath? Which of the 80 spells do you choose to make a DPS class? Because they way it has been implemented allows player choice based on the fight (further emphasised by condensed libra).

if they would implement it as a new soul crystal it could be Blue Battlemage (like how red mage in ff12 is called red battlemage), but there should be no reason why the limited portion and full game portion of blu couldnt coexist as a menu option

Why would the devs do this instead of making a whole new job? This has the same drawbacks as people who ask for advanced jobs like Ranger. And thats without mentioning how messy and haphazard that implementation sounds. Basically what you want is BLU limited job, and then a brand new job also called BLU that works entirely different (and is BLU only in the fact that it takes skill names from BLU) that coexist within a menu?

I get that you want BLU to be a "full job" (a term which honestly doesn't mean anything), but unless you can provide a way in which BLU actually benefits from this change (enough to actually course correct), BLU is better off as a separate piece of content. If the devs did implement BLU in the way you are describing, it would benefit nobody except diehard BLU purists who don't actually care what they get so long as they can play something named BLU in Eden.

[ReiMakoto]

Why would the devs do this instead of making a whole new job? This has the same drawbacks as people who ask for advanced jobs like Ranger.

Because it would be using the same skills/animations as the limited blu, just with specific loadouts, unlike a ranger subset which would use different skills

Edit:
Pretty rude to edit in more information to your post without marking it as such but hey

Blue's support identity shifts from game to game, in some its debuffs, in some its about buffing the party, both of which could be present and could be present in a "full job" (and yes, full job does have a meaning, limited jobs are level limited and cannot use key features meaning by definition there is a pretty large distinction between full jobs and limited jobs), FFV is but one example, one example where it still has a suite of party buffs and a few enemy debuffs, (some of which could be present in content)

DPS blu does have a "set" dps rotation in dps mimicry, 3 spells for each of the mimicry debuffs, sot, bristle, and the primal skills, White wind, mighty guard(reworked to be more like actual mighty guard and not just a tank stance) and bad breath could all be present in a rotation if balanced according

Continueing for my why, my counter would be why not, you say what would provide to actual blu, I'd say a potentially bigger pool of players to do the limited content. You're being incredibly narrow minded saying it would benefit no one, as it would benefit the "Blue Purists" and the people who like the limited content, you get both.

You seem to be very good and constructing strawmen of what other people actually want, nowhere did i say i would want it stripped down to 5 skills, or take away from limited content, get a grip man. But I've been here before with you, I don't think we're ever going to agree, nor are you going to be in anyways open to any suggestions

Edit 2:

What I mean by the "set" rotation it already has is in order to do optimal damage on raid bosses on blue you need

1.Off Guard
2. Astral Skill
3. Umbral Skill
4. Physical Skill
5. On Demand Weaving skill (knife or sonic boom)
6. Bristle
7. Song of Torment
8. Magic Hammer
9. Devour
10. Moon Flute
11. Condensed Libra
12. Aetherial Mimicry
13. Eruption/Feather Rain
14. Shock Strike
15. Mountain Buster
16. J-Kick
17. Glass Dance
18. Supranaka
19. Revenge Blast
20. Whistle
21. Final Sting
22. Level 5 Death

This Skills currently form and actually pretty alright rotation for blue mage to follow, this rotation with tweaks is what I would consider for a full blu rotation as a skeleton, without access to 5 death and like self destruct, I could write a large writup on how I would expand on this skillset as a level 80 job, but I'll leave it there for now, and I'm just going to assume people know why these skills form a rotation

[ReiMakoto]

To do a brief asside. I've been playing a game called Final Fantasy Explorers recently, its a pretty fun game, its basically FFXIV/Monster hunter lite on the 3ds, where you team up and run dungeons with aoe telegraphs on enemy attacks and fight bosses with specific mechanics.

Blue Mage exists within this game, and it actually has less total spells than black mage, all of its spells can easily be learned by finding and fighting the monsters that use its skills, and these skills when put together for a cohesive kit of a support dps class. Is this Blue Mage "not a real blue mage" or only appealing to blue puristst? No. Its its own thing. Thats what really boils my piss about all of this, "can play something named BLU" arguments people make up. Blu is a class that conforms to the game environment its put in, and has wildly different usefulness and identity from game to game. This is why, in a game like ffxiv, I was looking forward to seeing what their interpretation would be, and they came out with limited blu, which is something that really does not appeal to me, but having an option to have both limited as side content and a balanced blu in the full game, does not take anything away from either, and neither is less or more a "real blue mage"

[Daemius]

As someone who hated BLU's implementation in the game at 4.5 and now would say it's my second favorite job, making BLU a non limited job would kill what I like about it. I find that most people that gripe about BLU actually haven't dedicated a whole lot of time to it. BLU raiding in 5.1 has been more fun than any other the content this patch for me. If they just shoe horned BLU into the existing class paradigm we lose things like Missile, L5Death, Self Destruct, Diamondback and Final Sting all which significantly alter how some fights function and make them fun in a new way that only BLUs can make them. Mog Ex is a hilariously quick fight as a team full of BLUs and I love it.

Making spells 100% learn rate in a synced party really turned things around. I think the devs made an excellent choice with that QoL change and wish more people would take advantage of it.

I look forward to BST being a limited job now after 5.1 as I'm really curious to see how the devs can balance existing content around a party full of BSTs.