5.1 Crafting Feedback Thread

[Jojoya]

If need to rub your accomplishments in the face of others to feel proud of them..then yes you won't get through crafting anymore.

Then why is SE introducing Expert Recipes and Skysteel Tools? Why aren't they sticking to what they'd done the past 2 expansions?

Skysteel Tools sound very much like a way to rub your accomplishments in the face of others. From what SE has said, normal crafters are unlikely to complete the more advanced stages of the tools though we won't know this for certain until they're added to the game and we can start getting into the system.

If true, you're going to have to put up with the hardcore crafters waving their shiny tools in your face.

The vastly inflated MB prices Pre-5.1 was disruptive. You want anything at all, a crafted tool, armor, weapon, you pay tooth and nail for it. 100k, 150k, 200k+ it was simply ridiculous.

Prices at the start of any expansion in any MMO are always inflated. Fewer players have leveled to cap. Fewer players have geared up. Fewer players have had a chance to get a good stockpile of mats collected. You've got fewer players capable of meeting the demand for crafted goods. They have to spend more of their time trying to keep up with demand, and that's time they can't be doing other things they'd also like to do.

It's not disruptive. It's normal.

Considering vendor prices for NQ gear are already into the 40k range, 100-150k for a player crafted HQ item is not outrageous. These items don't magically appear out of thin air unlike the vendor items. It takes time to gather materials. Time to craft the intermediate step materials. Time to make the final item. This isn't WoW's 5 second crafting system.

You want the nicer item that requires someone else's time investment to create, then it's only reasonable that you pay for the other person's time.

Or do it yourself. I doubt you'd be complaining as much about what others charge if you were the one investing the time making the item.

There's always one last option. Go without.

[NanaWiloh]

Then why is SE introducing Expert Recipes and Skysteel Tools? Why aren't they sticking to what they'd done the past 2 expansions?

Skysteel Tools sound very much like a way to rub your accomplishments in the face of others. From what SE has said, normal crafters are unlikely to complete the more advanced stages of the tools though we won't know this for certain until they're added to the game and we can start getting into the system.

If true, you're going to have to put up with the hardcore crafters waving their shiny tools in your face.


Prices at the start of any expansion in any MMO are always inflated. Fewer players have leveled to cap. Fewer players have geared up. Fewer players have had a chance to get a good stockpile of mats collected. You've got fewer players capable of meeting the demand for crafted goods. They have to spend more of their time trying to keep up with demand, and that's time they can't be doing other things they'd also like to do.

It's not disruptive. It's normal.

Considering vendor prices for NQ gear are already into the 40k range, 100-150k for a player crafted HQ item is not outrageous. These items don't magically appear out of thin air unlike the vendor items. It takes time to gather materials. Time to craft the intermediate step materials. Time to make the final item. This isn't WoW's 5 second crafting system.

You want the nicer item that requires someone else's time investment to create, then it's only reasonable that you pay for the other person's time.

Or do it yourself. I doubt you'd be complaining as much about what others charge if you were the one investing the time making the item.

There's always one last option. Go without.

Skytools are crafter versions of Relic weapons. Relic weapons have never at any point impressed me figured out really fast the massive grind is not worth the reward. A dent to the ego when you bust your rear for a weapon just to see someone carrying something almost equal but requires less effort to obtain. Example Tome weapons vs savage weapons As for Expert recipes they rely on a new proc, Soon as theory crafters figure out the system everyone will be doing them. Agree with you on the MB part, One of reasons I craft not fond of paying others for things I can do myself and also enjoy doing.


p.s Putting win10 on my computer tomorrow. May computer nerds everywhere be on my side..lol

[Jojoya]

p.s Putting win10 on my computer tomorrow. May computer nerds everywhere be on my side..lol

Good luck!

So apparently the Special Site for 5.2 lists "Crafting/Gathering Overhaul" despite the fact they JUST did an Overhaul in 5.1.

This tells me that 5.1 is not final and that they have more adjustments to make, so it could be that a lot of the back-and-forth in this thread is irrelevant as maybe they already have plans to address the concerns with the lack of difficult crafting endgame.

Just as long as they keep the leveling process being relatively easy (like leveling DoM/DoW jobs is), I'm content with 3+ star crafting being hard.

They told us before the expansion started that the changes were going to be rolled out in stages. Making crafting/gathering easier to get into would be first. Adding in more advanced content for those who use crafting/gathering as their primary end game would be second.

Not SE's fault that part of the player base wasn't paying attention to what they were being told and decided that things would be happening differently.

They already told us that Master 3 star crafting isn't going to be hard. They don't want the Master recipe items being the province of the "privileged few". It's going to be the standard difficulty increase that gets offset by the correct overmelds and foods/syrup. People will test rotations in Teamcraft in short order then share their macros online so anyone willing to take the time/gil to overmeld their gear will be able to make them.

It's the new Expert recipes that will be hard, presumably because of the new variable conditions they will have outside of Good/Excellent/Poor that should make macros useless. We'll have to wait for 5.2 to come out so we can see.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a final round of action balance adjustments in 5.3 once they get a chance to see how things play out in the hands of players.

[NanaWiloh]

Good luck!


They told us before the expansion started that the changes were going to be rolled out in stages. Making crafting/gathering easier to get into would be first. Adding in more advanced content for those who use crafting/gathering as their primary end game would be second.

Not SE's fault that part of the player base wasn't paying attention to what they were being told and decided that things would be happening differently.

They already told us that Master 3 star crafting isn't going to be hard. They don't want the Master recipe items being the province of the "privileged few". It's going to be the standard difficulty increase that gets offset by the correct overmelds and foods/syrup. People will test rotations in Teamcraft in short order then share their macros online so anyone willing to take the time/gil to overmeld their gear will be able to make them.

It's the new Expert recipes that will be hard, presumably because of the new variable conditions they will have outside of Good/Excellent/Poor that should make macros useless. We'll have to wait for 5.2 to come out so we can see.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a final round of action balance adjustments in 5.3 once they get a chance to see how things play out in the hands of players.

I used macro's while leveling stopped soon as I was ready to craft Facet gear. Didn't want to test fate and leave the macro to run my rotation, have found silly things can cause a macro to skip an actions.

[Solarra]

I... have found silly things can cause a macro to skip an actions.

Tip: Try increasing the wait time after an action if it happens to you consistently. Due to where I live, the internet isn't the best and adding an extra second solved the issue for me.
If you are making your own macros, remember some actions need a longer wait after them than others, though you'll see that factored in with most rotations posted here.

[Maeka]

Good luck!


They told us before the expansion started that the changes were going to be rolled out in stages. Making crafting/gathering easier to get into would be first. Adding in more advanced content for those who use crafting/gathering as their primary end game would be second.

Not SE's fault that part of the player base wasn't paying attention to what they were being told and decided that things would be happening differently.

They already told us that Master 3 star crafting isn't going to be hard. They don't want the Master recipe items being the province of the "privileged few". It's going to be the standard difficulty increase that gets offset by the correct overmelds and foods/syrup. People will test rotations in Teamcraft in short order then share their macros online so anyone willing to take the time/gil to overmeld their gear will be able to make them.

It's the new Expert recipes that will be hard, presumably because of the new variable conditions they will have outside of Good/Excellent/Poor that should make macros useless. We'll have to wait for 5.2 to come out so we can see.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a final round of action balance adjustments in 5.3 once they get a chance to see how things play out in the hands of players.

Ahh, so they're adding a new thing. I don't keep up with Live Letters and news that much admittedly.

But yes, I do wish the players would actually read and pay attention to what they are told. I mean, if someone is an endgame crafter who is invested enough to go flying off the handle at the 5.1 changes, then they should be invested enough to actually read and understand what was said. If they said that this was only the first round of changes, then they should have known that all they gotta do is wait for the rest of the changes. But then, I will also admit that I have noticed that more hardcore players are also the less patient players and they gotta have things NOW, rather than later.

Casuals tend to be the more relaxed and patient types. We have to be, because we waited several years for a more fun crafting system. I think the Hardcores can wait a few months before they get back into making their ridiculous stacks of gil that they have nothing to spend it on.

[Jojoya]

tend to be the more relaxed and patient types. We have to be, because we waited several years for a more fun crafting system. I think the Hardcores can wait a few months before they get back into making their ridiculous stacks of gil that they have nothing to spend it on.

What wasn't fun about the crafting system before that deterred you from getting into it?

What makes it fun now?

There's really only been 2 major changes - the removal of cross class actions (which weren't necessary in the first place, they just made it possible to get HQ reliably on more difficult recipes instead of relying on RNG) and a massive increase to XP to speed up leveling. The remaining changes are relatively minor, akin to balance adjustments that combat jobs get every expansion.

You still have to use actions to increase quality and synthesis progress. You're still limited by durability and CP. You're still going to have to level up all the classes if you want to be self-sufficient or buy from other players the materials you need that aren't made by your class. You're still going to have to keep your gear up to date and overmeld it to reliably get HQ on current level Master recipes. If you suck at the math mini-game, you're still going to be reliant on Teamcraft or waiting for other players to share their macros with you so you can make those Master recipes.

If you didn't enjoy crafting before the changes, chances are good you're still not going to enjoy it after. At its core, the system hasn't really changed. It's just quicker for you to reach level cap.

As for people with ridiculous stacks of gil, you can thank the player base for being willing to pay other players for the things they're too lazy to get/make for themselves.

You had the option to become one of the rich players by putting in the same effort they did. You chose not to.

[Maeka]

What wasn't fun about the crafting system before that deterred you from getting into it?

What makes it fun now?

The sheer amount of grinding it took to levelup, to be honest. And/or how you had way too many buttons and it was far too confusing, that most people simply just looked up whatever macros they needed.

There's really only been 2 major changes - the removal of cross class actions (which weren't necessary in the first place, they just made it possible to get HQ reliably on more difficult recipes instead of relying on RNG) and a massive increase to XP to speed up leveling. The remaining changes are relatively minor, akin to balance adjustments that combat jobs get every expansion.

You still have to use actions to increase quality and synthesis progress. You're still limited by durability and CP. You're still going to have to level up all the classes if you want to be self-sufficient or buy from other players the materials you need that aren't made by your class. You're still going to have to keep your gear up to date and overmeld it to reliably get HQ on current level Master recipes. If you suck at the math mini-game, you're still going to be reliant on Teamcraft or waiting for other players to share their macros with you so you can make those Master recipes.

The "rotations" and/or actions are far more intuitive now, and yes, the XP change makes a large difference, and it feels smoother to actually HQ items now than it did in the past, and removing the button bloat was a huge change in the right direction.

If you didn't enjoy crafting before the changes, chances are good you're still not going to enjoy it after. At its core, the system hasn't really changed. It's just quicker for you to reach level cap.

Wrong, I make stuff on a regular basis now. I only touched crafting a little before 5.1 and within a few weeks, I set out to get all the crafts on 80, do all the craft/gatherer class quests, etc, which I did in maybe two weeks. It was fun, and I enjoyed it. I still make things now and then, and had juggled the idea of getting into making facet stuff, but I don't really have the time for that just yet.

You had the option to become one of the rich players by putting in the same effort they did. You chose not to.

Or maybe I was not able to, because of IRL obligations? And besides, there's a point where established crafters were always going to "win" no matter what, and regardless of what work a new player entering the ring puts in, they are never going to catch up without some sort of re-balancing (which is what 5.1 was). You could put all the work possible in, and still never catch up to those people who had 9-digit figure bank accounts who already ruled the MB.

[Nandrolone]

Or maybe I was not able to, because of IRL obligations? And besides, there's a point where established crafters were always going to "win" no matter what, and regardless of what work a new player entering the ring puts in, they are never going to catch up without some sort of re-balancing (which is what 5.1 was). You could put all the work possible in, and still never catch up to those people who had 9-digit figure bank accounts who already ruled the MB.

well, I first started crafting when ARR artisans gear was a big deal, right? there were only like maybe...5-6 top crafters with loads of Gil? ruling the market and pushing out anyone who entered the marketboard. back then, I was working a 9 - 5 job, and took my classes online. I gathered my butt off, to earn enough gil so I could level my crafters and gatherers, and even calculated effort spent VS time spent on certain things, and made prices through spreadsheets. I had to work really hard to compete with those top crafters, ya know. it took months to get there, but I got there. you just have to want it badly, trust me on this.

to have all that hard work and dedication removed, and yoshida/the dev team giving you the middle finger, really gets to you and makes you just lose hope for the future of the game. I know choosing the player base that nets the largest income is best, but the players you choose to ignore (the competitive hardcore peeps) will just get super depressed and not enjoy your game anymore.

and I understand not many people are willing to go through so much trouble just for some video game prestige, but for some people, myself included, it was a way to escape reality and show off how good you really are if you put your mind to it. i mean, that’s why most of us play right? to escape reality and have fun. end result was, billions of Gil, and the knowledge of making my own rotations. (I lost my passion for crafting in this game due to the unnecessary easy difficulty in everything. but when I did have passion, I went at it hard!) like I said, I’m glad you and others enjoy crafting now, but what I think JoJoya is trying to say is that for most people, not including you it seems, is that....if you didn’t enjoy crafting then, you won’t stick with it for long now.