One dungeon per patch!?

[Shurrikhan]

In SB, you 'lost' three dungeons. (4.1, 4.3 and 4.5 only having one dungeon as opposed to the 2 per patch in HW.)

You 'gained' the Arsenal, two Ultimate fights, and four zones for Eureka. With quests, several Notorius Monster fights per zones, and the logos system in the later two zones.

Let's not pretend dungeons alone bought us all that; any fair accounting would demand we also throw Diadem, Diadem Revamped, Wonderous Tails, and perhaps Aquapolis into the costs section.

I'm sure ultimates are beneath a WoW Mythic+ veteran like you, but please try to understand that us casuals need something to do as well.

Of all things that might appeal to a casual audience... you pick Ultimates as your bastion?

[HyoMinPark]

Of all things that might appeal to a casual audience... you pick Ultimates as your bastion?

They were being sarcastic, I’m fairly sure...

Stale and bland > Unaccesible.

Good night.

Hard disagree. I’d rather have no content than content that puts me to sleep. “Good night”, indeed.

It would be different if the dungeons in this game were engaging—but they really aren’t. They’re all the same with a different coat of paint: two pulls > boss > two pulls > boss > two pulls > final boss. Very little variance from that pattern. There’s nothing challenging about them. There’s nothing engaging about them. So I don’t see this as a loss. Maybe they can actually pool more resources into the single dungeon we’re getting and make it not mind-numbing. But I’m probably being too optimistic.

[Mansion]

It would be different if the dungeons in this game were engaging—but they really aren’t. They’re all the same with a different coat of paint: two pulls > boss > two pulls > boss > two pulls > final boss. Very little variance from that pattern. There’s nothing challenging about them. There’s nothing engaging about them. So I don’t see this as a loss. Maybe they can actually pool more resources into the single dungeon we’re getting and make it not mind-numbing. But I’m probably being too optimistic.

And that kind of applies to Trials, 24man raids, and normal mode raids to a certain degree too. Sure a few mechanics change here and there, but it's still following the same principles over and over. So if having one less dungeon allows the devs to enhance the rest of the content (normal mode or savage) I'd be happy. But I'm perhaps being too optimistic too.

[Omymy]

They were being sarcastic, I’m fairly sure...



Hard disagree. I’d rather have no content than content that puts me to sleep. “Good night”, indeed.

It would be different if the dungeons in this game were engaging—but they really aren’t. They’re all the same with a different coat of paint: two pulls > boss > two pulls > boss > two pulls > final boss. Very little variance from that pattern. There’s nothing challenging about them. There’s nothing engaging about them. So I don’t see this as a loss. Maybe they can actually pool more resources into the single dungeon we’re getting and make it not mind-numbing. But I’m probably being too optimistic.

Last time i said something like that about dungeons people sent me to play WoW soooo... I dont know.

I would rather prefer hard dungeons than a super hard battle who the vast mayority cant finish.

[HyoMinPark]

Last time i said something like that about dungeons people sent me to play WoW soooo... I dont know.

I would rather prefer hard dungeons than a super hard battle who the vast mayority cant finish.

Or you could ask for both? And maybe this change will grant both. Who knows. It seems doubtful what with the overall theme of Shadowbringers being to lower skill ceilings/close skill gaps, but one can dream.

I disagree with removing Ultimates simply because they’re niche. If that’s the argument, might as well remove all niche content (hello, PvP). But this is a theme-park MMO. Having both is not a huge thing to ask for—it’s just up to the developers to make dungeons more engaging for the playerbase at that point.

I also think anyone can tackle and clear an Ultimate if they put in the time and effort into it. Most opt not to because it takes a lot of time to 1. Obtain the skill needed for the content, and 2. Prog and clear the content. Some people don’t have the time to dedicate to it because of life. Others simply don’t want to because it can be really exhausting progging an Ultimate fight. Others still are content with sitting back and watching Twitch streams. Honestly, I don’t think it’s just the raiders that tackle it that enjoy the content: all three Ultimates netted substantial views on Twitch just from people watching the races. And I have seen several people who say that they just enjoyed watching it.

[tdb]

I also think anyone can tackle and clear an Ultimate if they put in the time and effort into it. Most opt not to because it takes a lot of time to 1. Obtain the skill needed for the content, and 2. Prog and clear the content. Some people don’t have the time to dedicate to it because of life. Others simply don’t want to because it can be really exhausting progging an Ultimate fight. Others still are content with sitting back and watching Twitch streams. Honestly, I don’t think it’s just the raiders that tackle it that enjoy the content: all three Ultimates netted substantial views on Twitch just from people watching the races. And I have seen several people who say that they just enjoyed watching it.

I'd love to have on-demand solo content on the difficulty level of savages or even ultimates. I have difficulty committing to a regular raiding schedule of a static progress group. Party finder can sometimes result in good groups, but it may also result in elitist jerks or entitled underperformers. And sometimes parties take hours to fill up.

[Omymy]

Or you could ask for both? And maybe this change will grant both. Who knows. It seems doubtful what with the overall theme of Shadowbringers being to lower skill ceilings/close skill gaps, but one can dream.

I disagree with removing Ultimates simply because they’re niche. If that’s the argument, might as well remove all niche content (hello, PvP). But this is a theme-park MMO. Having both is not a huge thing to ask for—it’s just up to the developers to make dungeons more engaging for the playerbase at that point.

I also think anyone can tackle and clear an Ultimate if they put in the time and effort into it. Most opt not to because it takes a lot of time to 1. Obtain the skill needed for the content, and 2. Prog and clear the content. Some people don’t have the time to dedicate to it because of life. Others simply don’t want to because it can be really exhausting progging an Ultimate fight. Others still are content with sitting back and watching Twitch streams. Honestly, I don’t think it’s just the raiders that tackle it that enjoy the content: all three Ultimates netted substantial views on Twitch just from people watching the races. And I have seen several people who say that they just enjoyed watching it.

At no point did I say that they should eliminate Ultimate. First, because any MMO should have a level escalation from casual to hardcore.

Another very different issue is that I think it's good and healthy for the game that the most remarkable content for a couple of months is precisely that which hardly anyone will try.

FFXIV is a casual game and that's what makes it grow. Other MMOs tried to please the hardcore community and died, as is the case with Wildstar.

And as far as everyone can do Ultimate... no. Just like the mythic one in WoW, people either don't have the skill, the time, or the interest to see everything you have to invest in order to have ilvl and a shiny weapon to show in Limsa.

[HyoMinPark]

At no point did I say that they should eliminate Ultimate. First, because any MMO should have a level escalation from casual to hardcore.

Apologies...but that has been implied repeatedly in your posts throughout this thread. At the very least, you’re implying that the game would be better off without the Ultimate fights in favor of focusing on more “casual” content.

At the end of the day, I doubt that the existence of Ultimate is what ultimately cost us the extra dungeons. In SB, the developers expressly said that the extra dungeon for every other patch was cut to focus on things like Eureka and BLU. Not Ultimate. Ultimate only has two developers that can even work on it.

FFXIV is a casual game and that's what makes it grow. Other MMOs tried to please the hardcore community and died, as is the case with Wildstar.

FFXIV is still immensely casual even with the presence of Ultimate. Everything had been made easier over the years. EX primals and Savage are a shadow of what they used to be. Jobs are constantly dumbed down as the expansions pass to close the gap between higher tier players and the lower tier ones.

And as far as everyone can do Ultimate... no. Just like the mythic one in WoW, people either don't have the skill, the time, or the interest to see everything you have to invest in order to have ilvl and a shiny weapon to show in Limsa.

You didn’t read what I said. I said:

“I also think anyone can tackle and clear Ultimate if they put in the time and effort into it.” This includes things such as “gitting gud”, finding a static (because Ultimate is not very puggable), setting aside time/forming a schedule to prog, being willing to set aside enough time for the content (different prog mentalities mean you will spend different amounts of time in it—more causal prog mindsets will take longer than a more hardcore mindset; you have to ask yourself if you are willing to endure long prog times or not, because Ultimate is an endurance test), and then actually progging and learning the content with the intent to clear. Of course not everyone has an interest in doing it—there are even really good raiders that have no interest in it even though they could easily clear—but everyone has the capability to tackle the content if they try for it.

[Omymy]

Apologies...but that has been implied repeatedly in your posts throughout this thread. At the very least, you’re implying that the game would be better off without the Ultimate fights in favor of focusing on more “casual” content.

At the end of the day, I doubt that the existence of Ultimate is what ultimately cost us the extra dungeons. In SB, the developers expressly said that the extra dungeon for every other patch was cut to focus on things like Eureka and BLU. Not Ultimate. Ultimate only has two developers that can even work on it.

My point of view is as simple as that: Ultimate should not count as a major part of the content, nor should it address a large % of a patch. The reasons for this are very simple; on the one hand, it's completely niche content and on the other hand, I'm sure it's played by a very small percentage of the playerbase.

FFXIV is still immensely casual even with the presence of Ultimate. Everything had been made easier over the years. EX primals and Savage are a shadow of what they used to be. Jobs are constantly dumbed down as the expansions pass to close the gap between higher tier players and the lower tier ones.

I don't know at what point I said that Ultimate would make FFXIV stop being casual. It has been, is and will be, and this is the feature that attracts so many people to try it and stay. It doesn't force you to be a toplayer, you have many options and they all have their charm.

You didn’t read what I said. I said:

“I also think anyone can tackle and clear Ultimate if they put in the time and effort into it.” This includes things such as “gitting gud”, finding a static (because Ultimate is not very puggable), setting aside time/forming a schedule to prog, being willing to set aside enough time for the content (different prog mentalities mean you will spend different amounts of time in it—more causal prog mindsets will take longer than a more hardcore mindset; you have to ask yourself if you are willing to endure long prog times or not, because Ultimate is an endurance test), and then actually progging and learning the content with the intent to clear. Of course not everyone has an interest in doing it—there are even really good raiders that have no interest in it even though they could easily clear—but everyone has the capability to tackle the content if they try for it.

Nope.

I'm sorry, but the harsh reality is that there are people who, even if they put everything into it, are not going to be able to finish that battle. I've raided Mythical in WoW (in fact I have the last raid totally finished) and I've seen people who just couldn't. They tried hard, they improved their equipment, their rotations, but it didn't work.

[linay]

Let's not pretend dungeons alone bought us all that; any fair accounting would demand we also throw Diadem, Diadem Revamped, Wonderous Tails, and perhaps Aquapolis into the costs section.

What kind of accounting is that?

Diadem is being revised, WT is still here as far as I know (haven't done it in a long time), and Aquapolis has its counterparts in the latter expansions.