How would people feel if they took positional requirements away?

[Powercow]

But would they really need a new system? Melee would still have to maximise the time spent in melee range unlike other dps. And no one on this thread (to my knowledge) has really explained what special mechanic all physical ranged jobs have to deal with that makes them engaging to play without positionals. Their rotation? I'm all for more interesting melee dps rotations if that's where the problem lies.

So you're OK with more interesting melee rotations, but don't think that melee need something new? Because a new rotation is a new system. And yeah, in some cases (like Ninja) the rotation would have to barely change to keeps up its level of engagement, but for others (Monk) it'd require the entire job to be overhauled. "Staying in melee" is, and always has been, extremely easy in this game.

Let me put it this way: if they removed positionals, Monk becomes a more simple DPS than Paladin. And no, I'm not factoring in Paladin's defensive duties/options, which absolutely dwarf Monk's. Keep in mind, Paladin isn't exactly the most exciting of DPS jobs and is generally considered pretty basic.

Exactly. You see what people HERE want. Forum posters are an incredibly small percentage of the population. The overwhelming majority of players don't post here and it's SE's job to keep them happy too.

Generally people come to the forums with an axe to grind. If you like how things are, you're not likely going to go to the forum to demand that things don't change, you're probably in the game having fun.

[Khalithar]

OK, let's put it this way: positionals involve you pushing a button to get more DPS. It involves you looking at the boss, the current mechanics, and knowing if the boss is going to do anything soon. If you simply rip out this aspect of every melee, then they are all, *ALL* worse off for it.

I disagree, I think they would be better off for it.

To compensate they'd need a system that involved as many button presses and as much foresight in order to not make the job more dumbed down. Given how you seem to think it should be that would involve coming up with a new series of buffs, debuffs, rotational abilities or melee-specific boss mechanics on every single fight that are just as frequently used as moving for positionals and require as much thought -- which means either one new generic melee system of some kind or one unique to each job, or most outrageously a complete overhaul to nearly every group encounter in the entire game.

They wouldn't have to overhaul anything, I genuinely believe if they took positionals away right now that everything would be fine as is. Really thinking about it now as I think of all the mechanics for the melee jobs in my head, if they got rid of positionals, none of the jobs would require any extra mechanics, they would be fine as is in my opinion.

So Sam/Nin becomes a matter of just sitting in one place for the overwhelming majority of the time. Yeah, if they kept removing aspects of positionals then it would indeed be practically pointless. As it stands positionals do add, by your very own admission, meaningful gameplay to the melee jobs.

I never said it was "meaningful" at all. I did say it does keep melee more engaged, but I don't necessarily consider it to be done in a "meaningful" way, I think positionals are pointless and stupid. But if we were to talk about what is or is not "meaningful" we'd just be arguing semantics at that point.

Now I get that you don't like that aspect of melee jobs; I don't like aspects of BLM or DRK or SCH. But I don't go around advocating that they should have mechanics outright ripped out to make it more simple.

Now this is what I was referring to by people playing it up. Removing positionals is most definitely not "ripping away mechanics" but what you said here:

I don't want Aetherflow or the Fairy Gauge removed, I don't want DRK's MP to be nullified.

That is what ripping away mechanics actually looks like. That is what nullifying a major part of a job's identity and gameplay looks like. Another thing to keep in mind, is that positionals are not all created equal across all the melee jobs because they are much less present for Sam/Nin as compared to Drg/Mnk. If you were to take away the positional for sam it would mean they could sit behind the boss (which they do most of the time) and wouldn't have to move for their single flank specific weapon skill. That's what I mean by the positional req is "barely there." You could get rid of it and would have an exceptionally tiny effect on current sam gameplay.

Take the positional for nin away and the same applies, they wouldn't have to move for their single weapon skill that extends huton and requires you to be on the flank for full potency. Exact same thing applies, you get rid of it and it would once more have barely any impact whatsoever on ninja's gameplay. It's not the same as getting rid of the samurai ki bar or ninjas mudras which once more is what actually "ripping out" mechanics looks like.

Positionals are for sam/nin are so minor they are essentially pointless, therefore in my opinion, scrap them and never look back.

Now I *can* agree that getting rid of positionals for mnk/drg would indeed make them a lot easier or "dumbed down" as you wanted to call them. However, the difference between us is I don't think that's a bad thing. I genuinely believe the jobs would still be fun to play and just fine as is even if the positionals were gone and nothing else was added.

I don't want Enochian gone

Off topic but... Enochian should have been a passive from day 1.

Edit:

You have Riddle of Earth on a 60s CD and two True North charges. If you're missing more than the occasional positional, that's on you and not the job.

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, that RoE and the two charges on True North with their short CD are just a band aid fix to a larger problem? One that could very easily be solved by getting rid of positionals?

[Brightamethyst]

Generally people come to the forums with an axe to grind. If you like how things are, you're not likely going to go to the forum to demand that things don't change, you're probably in the game having fun.

The people who make two posts and leave, maybe. That's not generally true of the regulars though. I somehow doubt that your 500+ posts are all complaints.

[RyuDragnier]

But would they really need a new system? Melee would still have to maximise the time spent in melee range unlike other dps. And no one on this thread (to my knowledge) has really explained what special mechanic all physical ranged jobs have to deal with that makes them engaging to play without positionals. Their rotation? I'm all for more interesting melee dps rotations if that's where the problem lies.

Go to Eureka, fight an enemy while a tank holds aggro. You don't have to move for positionals, you don't have to dodge AoE. It's incredibly boring, mind numbing, and made me put down Monk in there because I wasn't having any fun whatsoever. Another example, play BLM in a fight where you don't need to move at all, and are just hitting buttons. It's boring, there's no thrill, there's no challenge, it's just a tank and spank with minimal effort for a reward. If there's no risk involved, there's no fun.

[Powercow]

I disagree, I think they would be better off for it.

They wouldn't have to overhaul anything, I genuinely believe if they took positionals away right now that everything would be fine as is. Really thinking about it now as I think of all the mechanics for the melee jobs in my head, if they got rid of positionals, none of the jobs would require any extra mechanics, they would be fine as is in my opinion.

And that's neat, but people who the jobs would prefer to not have about 10-20% of their keypresses removed for no reason.

I never said it was "meaningful" at all. I did say it does keep melee more engaged, but I don't necessarily consider it to be done in a "meaningful" way, I think positionals are pointless and stupid. But if we were to talk about what is or is not "meaningful" we'd just be arguing semantics at that point.

But... you're the only one arguing semantics?

Now this is what I was referring to by people playing it up. Removing positionals is most definitely not "ripping away mechanics" but what you said here:

Yes, yes it is. A Monk needs to move to the side or rear every ~2 GCDs or so. This means that for every other time you have to press a button to activate a weapon skill, you need to press another to move as well. You're asking for that additional press to be removed. That's roughly a third of a monk's buttons during their basic combo removed for absolutely no reason. It would only serve to slow the job down and make it less engaging, and by God does Monk not need any more of that.

That is what ripping away mechanics actually looks like. That is what nullifying a major part of a job's identity and gameplay looks like.

Aetherflow and the Fairy Gauge are less interactive and less of a core part of a Scholar's identity than positionals for monk, both from a lore/aesthetic perspective and a gameplay one.
For lore, nothing about Scholar really pushes it towards Aether outside of general mana and summoning of the fairy, and while fairies are a big part of Scholar's lore and aesthetic the gauge is not -- the fairy itself is. In terms of gameplay, the Aetherflow gauge adds just the tiniest smidgen of choice and the Fairy Gauge adds essentially nothing, as the tether could easily have been a cooldown and nobody would have noticed.
For a Monk, being a martial arts expert who moves around the target to strike at its weak points recalls old Bruce Lee and Kung-Fu films that monk is very much so based off of. Gameplay-wise, well it's about ~20% or so of their button presses, which should indicate plenty how integral to its gameplay it is.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that positionals are not all created equal across all the melee jobs because they are much less present for Sam/Nin as compared to Drg/Mnk. If you were to take away the positional for sam it would mean they could sit behind the boss (which they do most of the time) and wouldn't have to move for their single flank specific weapon skill. That's what I mean by the positional req is "barely there." You could get rid of it and would have an exceptionally tiny effect on current sam gameplay.

Sure, but it would still involve taking away meaningful button presses from the Samurai if you removed the bonus. The job would be objectively simpler and slower as a result.

Take the positional for nin away and the same applies, they wouldn't have to move for their single weapon skill that extends huton and requires you to be on the flank for full potency. Exact same thing applies, you get rid of it and it would once more have barely any impact whatsoever on ninja's gameplay. It's not the same as getting rid of the samurai ki bar or ninjas mudras which once more is what actually "ripping out" mechanics looks like.

The Samurai aesthetic doesn't really involve striking your opponent a bunch of times to get extra strikes in. The style is clearly based of Iaijutsu, what with Midare sheathing the katana and all, so from a lore standpoint no the kenki gauge doesn't add much. From a gameplay standpoint it's a fine mechanic, and Samurai would be worse off for its removal to about the same extent Monk would be with the loss of positionals. For Ninja, the aesthetic idea of striking from behind absolutely fits the fantasy ninja, who is the dual-katana wielding, magic-casting shadow warrior. Striking the weak points of an enemy to gain an advantage completely fits. The reason Ninja doesn't have *more* positionals is simply for gameplay reasons, that is the Mudra system and tight timings on things like Trick Attack mean Ninja already had enough stuff to deal with. And yes, removing Mudras would hurt the ninja aesthetic and gameplay more than losing its positionals, but let's not play this game of "well sure, losing a hand would suck, but is it worse than losing an entire ARM?!"

Positionals are for sam/nin are so minor they are practically meaningless, therefore in my opinion, scrap them and never look back.

If they were practically meaningless, people wouldn't do them nor care about doing them. But given how you do seem to care about the 0.6% DPS difference of hitting every flank positional on Ninja (versus hitting none), it does seem meaningful. Plus, you know, aesthetic and speed, yadda yadda.

Now I *can* agree that getting rid of positionals for mnk/drg would indeed make them a lot easier or "dumbed down" as you wanted to call them. However, the difference between us is I don't think that's a bad thing. I genuinely believe the jobs would still be fun to play and just fine as is even if the positionals were gone and nothing else was added.

Monk is already arguably the easiest job in the game. Removing the positionals would utterly cement that, as Monk's DPS rotation would be easier than any of the tanks'. Now that may be fine for you, but for longtime players of the job we'd prefer our DPS job to actually have more to it than the damn tanks.

Off topic but... Enochian should have been a passive from day 1.

Oh I agree, but I don't play BLM enough to start claiming the job should be changed to suit my tastes. Enochian doesn't keep me away from the job, and the job is just fine IMO, it's just that I have other jobs I like better.

The people who make two posts and leave, maybe. That's not generally true of the regulars though. I somehow doubt that your 500+ posts are all complaints.

No, some of them are making fun of dumb posts, some are memey, some are answering questions for players who want to learn, etc. But yes most do fall under the category of complaints. Hell, this thread and everyone saying positionals would be better off removed falls under that category.

[Shurrikhan]

Because the enemy moves to face you, that’s already, more or less, how it is. It’s not possible playing in the open world to hit positional requirements

Again, you absolutely can get positionals off in solo play. It's weird and gimmicky, but it is wholly doable as long as you're not using target lock-on. I leveled initially as a PGL and learned how to do it consistently by level 10 or so. You need only stand very close to the enemy's center and use the skill just as you move. It's not rocket science.

[tdb]

Aetherflow and the Fairy Gauge are less interactive and less of a core part of a Scholar's identity than positionals for monk, both from a lore/aesthetic perspective and a gameplay one.
For lore, nothing about Scholar really pushes it towards Aether outside of general mana and summoning of the fairy, and while fairies are a big part of Scholar's lore and aesthetic the gauge is not -- the fairy itself is. In terms of gameplay, the Aetherflow gauge adds just the tiniest smidgen of choice and the Fairy Gauge adds essentially nothing, as the tether could easily have been a cooldown and nobody would have noticed.
For a Monk, being a martial arts expert who moves around the target to strike at its weak points recalls old Bruce Lee and Kung-Fu films that monk is very much so based off of. Gameplay-wise, well it's about ~20% or so of their button presses, which should indicate plenty how integral to its gameplay it is.

I find it kinda funny how you downplay the importance of scholar's mechanics while praising monk's to the heavens. For me it's the other way around - monk's positionals come off as unnecessary busywork while scholar's aetherflow and fairy gauge are an interesting resource management mechanic.

As for scholar's lore not supporting the aesthetic of the gauges. They are gameplay abstractions. A real scholar (assuming for a moment that such a thing existed) would likely feel the power of the aetherflow charges with your mind. They might have a growing feeling of being connected with their fairy as you use aetherflow abilities. But computer games are a very restricted medium which can only convey visual and auditory sensations, and even those only in limited ways. Other senses have to be simulated through these two. Monk has their greased lightning charges and chakras too, which are represented as an abstract gauge.

The lily mechanic for white mage on the other hand, now that is bland. Up until level 74 it's literally just a fancy charge counter for Afflatus Solace. At least they had the sense to decouple it from abilities a white mage should not need in endgame with a decent party, though I had hoped it would be tied to actually useful abilities instead of being made fully passive. Afflatus Misery is barely more interesting, though having a powerful AoE ability is nice. And Afflatus Rapture just shares charges with Solace, which at least brings a choice (but scholar has five different abilities using aetherflow, one of which is an attack). Honestly, it's the most boring class mechanic out of all the classes I've played so far.

[Shurrikhan]

But would they really need a new system? Melee would still have to maximise the time spent in melee range unlike other dps. And no one on this thread (to my knowledge) has really explained what special mechanic all physical ranged jobs have to deal with that makes them engaging to play without positionals. Their rotation? I'm all for more interesting melee dps rotations if that's where the problem lies.

If I'd enjoyed Bard since Bow Mage (when Bard had the most risk-reward, imo) or Crit-cheese-comp SB (cus who doesn't love flurries of procs?), or MCH since ammo management stopped being a thing, I could maybe tell you, but... positionals are largely why I still like modern melee (minus Monk and post-5.1 NIN) and am generally bored by modern Ranged jobs, especially all but Bard.

MCH, for instance, had something that made it engaging to me without positionals, and in a wholly different, job-unique direction, and so I enjoyed it. Now it doesn't, and so I don't.

Monk and Ninja have had their rotations made far less complex or flexible and that has definitely been felt, but there's a lot more to whether a job comes off as engaging than any one part alone. Positionals have just happened to be a fairly safe bet targetable at the vast majority of players who'd enjoy higher apm combat; it adds no buttons you wouldn't have already needed and keeps you on your toes while obliging a measure of foresight (obviously far less with each expansion, but still).

[Shurrikhan]

I find it kinda funny how you downplay the importance of scholar's mechanics while praising monk's to the heavens. For me it's the other way around - monk's positionals come off as unnecessary busywork while scholar's aetherflow and fairy gauge are an interesting resource management mechanic.

Isn't that just because it'd never change SCH's gameplay if you got Aetherflow in the same manner as Lilies (to a max of 5 and start of 3) or on a 5-charge cooldown shared across Aetherflow skills (where you enter combat with at most 3, again allowing you to bank up to 6 AF skills in rapid deployment) and Fairy Gauge doesn't really offer any significant advantages enough to target rapid gauge generation over anything else, while Monk's positionals at least aren't merely a rebranding of a cooldown or a side-effect of regular play?

Granted, Monk stances are at best a smidgen better, but there's nothing really unique to Aetherflow except a faintly rebranded form of cooldown; it's fine, it's just... does it remotely matter that it is as it is?

[tdb]

Isn't that just because it'd never change SCH's gameplay if you got Aetherflow in the same manner as Lilies (to a max of 5 and start of 3) or on a 5-charge cooldown shared across Aetherflow skills (where you enter combat with at most 3, again allowing you to bank up to 6 AF skills in rapid deployment) and Fairy Gauge doesn't really offer any significant advantages enough to target rapid gauge generation over anything else, while Monk's positionals at least aren't merely a rebranding of a cooldown or a side-effect of regular play?

Granted, Monk stances are at best a smidgen better, but there's nothing really unique to Aetherflow except a faintly rebranded form of cooldown; it's fine, it's just... does it remotely matter that it is as it is?

Aetherflow has some nuances that passively gained charges (and WHM's lilies) don't have. You have to monitor the cooldown of the Aetherflow button and press it when appropriate (much like MNK has to press the movement button to hit their next positional when appropriate, although less often). The button doesn't add three charges but completely fills up the gauge; if you have some charges remaining when you press the button they are wasted. To play SCH optimally you have to expend all of your aetherflow charges before the button comes off cooldown. But unless you play in a static with only the best players, you also want to keep some charges available for emergency heals since Lustrate and Indomitability are pretty powerful.

Converting aetherflow into passively gained charges similar to lilies would make SCH much simpler to play since you could just hit an (instant) aetherflow ability if the gauge gets full and otherwise use them as needed (subject to charge availability). Much like removing positionals would make MNK gameplay simpler since it would no longer be required to move around.