Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

[Awha]

Because unless someone is actually preventing the completion of the run and refusing to take advice that would allow them to compete it I don’t think they should be removed from content, and even if it takes them a few tries to learn the mechs of a boss battle that’s totally fine too as long as they are communicating and trying.

For example, I’m trying to get all jobs to 80 for my amaro mount, I’ve been in a lot, and I mean a lot of parties where the tank could pull large but they don’t, would I love to have big pulls and be done a bit faster? Sure, but the thought to remove them has never crossed my mind, I’m not more important or more significant than they are so I just deal with it and take a few minutes longer to complete the duty.

Oh I agree that no one person on a 1:1 is more important the another, what I am saying is vote kicks are not based around one person it requires the a majority of those able to vote to pass. So this is where my question lays if the vote passes to remove another player for being new or less skilled how is that bad? At that point it could be seen as a fact that the vote passed which means majority of the group did not want to play with said person for whatever reason.

Overall maybe I am mixing up what people are trying to say. I have no issue with people not approving of action, more so confused as to why they refer to the action as bad. I tend to differentiate the two, just because I do not like something does not mean I think it is bad. Though I could very well using them in the wrong context now that go back and read the responses over again.

[SerLuke]

Oh I agree that no one person on a 1:1 is more important the another, what I am saying is vote kicks are not based around one person it requires the a majority of those able to vote to pass. So this is where my question lays if the vote passes to remove another player for being new or less skilled how is that bad? At that point it could be seen as a fact that the vote passed which means majority of the group did not want to play with said person for whatever reason.

Overall maybe I am mixing up what people are trying to say. I have no issue with people not approving of action, more so confused as to why they refer to the action as bad. I tend to differentiate the two, just because I do not like something does not mean I think it is bad. Though I could very well using them in the wrong context now that go back and read the responses over again.

I’ve been on the receiving end of being vote kicked without explanation a few times especially when I was a newer player, it led me towards consider quitting the game because I didn’t know what I was doing wrong and that experience sucked and I wouldn’t want to put someone else through it because I’ve been there myself.

But I’ve improved over time, made corrections where I’ve needed to taken into account the advice of friends(some of whom raid savage content, not mocking raids like someone earlier accused me of) and friendly people and just in general the practice and experience that comes with playing the game over time. Thus I strive to be the kind of player that will actually help others and not make them feel like dirt because their performance might not be totally up to par. Im not perfect by any means there are jobs I’ve lvl’d that I don’t feel totally comfortable on. I just don’t want to be a jerk by making less skilled people feel like trash and kicking then to speed up runs by a few minutes.

[Annabellechu]

It is wrong because you're possibly ruining the experience of someone intentionally because they're ruining your experience possibly unintentionally. It's wrong because that person doesn't actually have a learning chance. It's upsetting for a person that actually want to learn to be kicked and not know why they were kicked. As I said in a previous post I almost got kicked from msq roulette (when for me it was just my regular story) because I didn't want to get killed by a boss that I aggroed because of regen (I'm a healer). Someone told me to stop running and I did and they still initiated a vote kick after I explained myself. Did he fix the situation by talking to me? Definitely. All he had to say was "stop running", is it worth ruining my experience because you're too lazy to write 2 words? What's the worst that can happen, losing 2 minutes of your time and still kicking the person anyway? Is it really important to ruin the other person experience for these 2 minutes? That's my opinion.

[Awha]

I’ve been on the receiving end of being vote kicked without explanation a few times especially when I was a newer player, it led me towards consider quitting the game because I didn’t know what I was doing wrong and that experience sucked and I wouldn’t want to put someone else through it because I’ve been there myself.

But I’ve improved over time, made corrections where I’ve needed to taken into account the advice of friends(some of whom raid savage content, not mocking raids like someone earlier accused me of) and friendly people and just in general the practice and experience that comes with playing the game over time. Thus I strive to be the kind of player that will actually help others and not make them feel like dirt because their performance might not be totally up to par. Im not perfect by any means there are jobs I’ve lvl’d that I don’t feel totally comfortable on. I just don’t want to be a jerk by making less skilled people feel like trash and kicking then to speed up runs by a few minutes.

That makes sense, and I could see how your experience would lead to your outlook, but do not take this the wrong way does that really matter? Everyone has their own outlook that is shaped by their own personal experience and that itself does not inherently give one more validation over another. As an example, I mentioned this in a another thread but in WoW I went through entire tiers thinking I was a decent player until someone told me to kill myself due to how I was playing, their comment stung and after I vented with friends I grew to appreciate their comment because if it were not for them I may have never had any reason to look and improve my game play, and by improving my game play I also found a new level of appreciation for leveling and in time took part in server first kills.

This is my issue when people say it is bad to remove players because often they look at it from their own personal experience without considering the general outcome required to remove someone. Most of the group has to agree with the removal and that brings us back if the group agrees with the removal doesn't that make the removal valid and acceptable. I get that one may personally not approve of the action, but does the lack of personal approval mean that it is inherently bad or wrong? Sure certain exceptions are possible just generally speaking in this context, I think less issues would happen if people just did not take it personally and simply viewed being removed or having to leave the group less as a waste of time and more so as a means of not using the time you have playing with others who are not making the game fun.

[Annabellechu]

You just need to understand, the problem is not the removal per say. It's your lack of empathy and communication. It's not because the majority agrees that it makes it any more "right". If your parents didn't like the way you turned out and disowned you without even talking about the issue how would you feel? Confused, frustrated, sad are all valid answers. We're mostly adults, we can communicate and fix our problems. Oh and for information I know my example is exagerated but for the sake of the argument it works because that's how I felt when they tried to kick me.

[Eli85]

Anyone wasting another person's time invites and should expect criticism. They're lucky to get advice.

Short answer: no. When a player is playing the game in a non-malicious and non-trolling playstyle, there should not be an expectation of criticism from strangers that they happened to be matched with. Again, this all goes back to unsolicited advice and how it rude that behaviour is in civil society. If you don't like the way they're playing, then either vote kick them or leave the group. But just by being in the group does not give you the right to give criticism and / or offer unsolicited advice.

It's a really sad that this needs to be explained. It should be common courtesy not to do it.

[Awha]

You just need to understand, the problem is not the removal per say. It's your lack of empathy and communication. It's not because the majority agrees that it makes it any more "right". If your parents didn't like the way you turned out and disowned you without even talking about the issue how would you feel? Confused, frustrated, sad are all valid answers. We're mostly adults, we can communicate and fix our problems. Oh and for information I know my example is exagerated but for the sake of the argument it works because that's how I felt when they tried to kick me.

Not sure if I used the word right, but if I did that is my fault since I am not saying that the action is correct or good because it passed, I am saying that the action is valid because the outcome of the vote is the only binary fact to to weigh the situation by. When you bring in outside feelings into this it creates situations that may lead to different outcomes for different people, but what I am saying is that everyone in theory should be able to agree that the outcome of a vote is a binary choice no middle ground it is black and white. If people treated it as such I do feel a lot of the issues with parsing, DF, play style difference would become a non factor. Since instead of viewing it as a personal attack on a style of play it comes down to an issue of well guess they did not want to play with me, oh well back at it. Since one constant I see when people talk about issues like this they let their own personal experience be it good or bad be the reason that justifies the vote instead of simply letting the outcome of the vote be the justification.

Do think when people try to bring right and wrong into this people tend to exaggerate or embellish a situation to create a more favorable image for their choice, instead of just using the outcome as a justification. Like with your disowning example sure I would be confused, and frustrated but that is irrelevant at that point since the deed was done, I can either choose to dwell on it or move on. My parents at that point do not care and it becomes a personal issue something I need to take care. Same goes for a lot of threads regarding removals most often either seeking justification or empathy towards the action but does that really do anything? End of the day the outcome is what matters the reasoning behind is moot to the general public since everyone handles everything differently. Once the removal happens it becomes an internal issue be it with yourself or GM.

Guess the view it is a akin to say a school had a policy had that every child must play if they are on a sports team, but the team does not want to have to deal with the kid that was forced to join the team because their parents wanted them to be on a sports team. So now the kid that honestly is only on the team because they were forced to is now forced to play a game and in situation A they try and fail or B they do not even bother to try because it does not matter since finishing the game is all that matters, or C they do want to learm and they are trying but the the expense of the team as a whole. In those situations it is bad all around for everyone it is not an enjoyable experience for anyone and only goes to build resentment all around.

As for your example I get where you are coming from, but way I see it what reason do they have to communicate? Would it be nice and helpful? Most differently but I do not think anyone should expect it being new is not a free pass as you mentioned before in your other thread. It is nice when you run into kind players but not everyone is kind, and to expect as much seems odd. Not saying you are expecting such but generally it does seem like people think being a new player means on a whole their experience has more value over the group itself.

Like with your example the reason for the removal is moot, the vote passed so that means the tank was not alone in how they felt, someone else must have felt the same so at that point it becomes a 2:1 in terms of time and experience in my opinion. The two of them verse you. While it sucks, I would say yes it does make sense for two people to put their time and experience over one person. Though I do not think it was personal, it was just a preference thing.

I know my view differs greatly from the norm, and maybe I do lack empathy, though I am on the spectrum and social norms go over my head. Sorry for the long rant, I find this topic interesting.

[Annabellechu]

Everyone has feelings and yes feelings are indeed not rational. Remember that feelings are negative and positive. This exact problem could end up positive for everyone if people took a couple seconds to fix the problem. I see the kick option as a last resort option that if used too quickly, shows a lack of empathy or lazyness.

[Hash_Browns]

Everyone has feelings and yes feelings are indeed not rational. Remember that feelings are negative and positive. This exact problem could end up positive for everyone if people took a couple seconds to fix the problem. I see the kick option as a last resort option that if used too quickly, shows a lack of empathy or lazyness.

Would just like to point out:

When I queue up for a dungeon, I don't care about other peoples feelings. Will I be nice? Sure.
Will I try to give some advice? Yes. But it's plainly clear when people aren't willing to learn.

A vote kick is the last step, but once you have dealt with the "You don't pay my sub" attitude it's really hard to find sympathy for people who lack the skill to do even the very basics in high level content.
Also, would just like to point out that I'm not in the dungeon to teach someone a class. I'm there to complete a dungeon.

If a DPS, tank, or healer aren't doing the role they chose, I'm going to try and replace them - not coddle or teach them how to play.

Half the time when I even offer advice it's thrown back at me.

As it stands, even if the run will be longer because I kicked a healer, and another one doesn't queue for 10 minutes I am still not willing to put up with some horrible player who has a 50% overheal, regens tanks when topped off, and does nothing 80% of the time when they could be DPSing.

Also just to be clear, a common disconnect here seems to be that people who are willing to kick others are toxic elists who have the highest of standards, where you need to be dealing super high damage as a healer, and you need to do savage content. This isn't the case at all.

it's pretty easy to play by the basics:

Healers - ABC, DPS when not healing, use OGCD heals, AOE at +3 mobs, play cards if you're an AST
Tanks - keep aggro, use cooldowns effectively, pull large packs, AOEs at +3 mobs
DPS - stay out of bad, AOE at +3 mobs, ABC

This is all stuff you learn before level 50. I should be seeing it in level 70-80 content.

[Jybril]

So question.
Does this happen to you folks often?
Seems like some of you seemingly get
an awful lot of bad players...