Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

[Vendalwind]

Not really, all dps roles have skillsets a person needs to have to be able to optimize a class, casters have to know how to slidecast and pre-position for mechanics and maintain as much uptime as possible, melee need to know how to be greedy and when to disengage/hit positionals or ignore positionals to keep the gcd rolling, and ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane.

At the moment the average machinist has an CPM of 45.1, Bard has a CPM of 43.5, and DNC has a CPM of 38.4, the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th highest CPM classes respectively. Ranged has some of the busiest rotations, and despite being constantly busy you're expected to bait certain mechanics so melee don't have to do them and can keep their precious uptime.

That is to say, melee, casters, and ranged all have different playstyles, they each have their own respective difficulties and people who think ranged is easy probably haven't played it enough.

But that's the thing. You are saying Ranged difficulty comes from "not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break"
But melee rotations are just as hard, if not even harder in the case of classes like NIN. so its not fair to use that as the defining metric. And SMN also has a far more difficult time with their GCDs and rotations than ANY bard. The only difficulty commonly innate to ranged is dealing with random procs altering their rotation (DNC feathers for example) but that is by far in large still easier to deal with than having to perfect double weave with 4 button pushes as NIN between a single gcd in and out.

My point here. Ranged DO NOT have difficult rotations. And if you want to talk CPM then ranged still aren't the highes with NIN and SMN out in front right now in that regard. And if we want to talk burst CPM than NIN far outdoes the other two in their burst moments, while having to also regard mechanics and stay in melee range. CPM is not a good measure of difficulty. My NIN CPM in Leviathin, A fight with downtime, averages at 48 CPM. 50 on voidwalker.
50. (given I run a slightly higher SkS than balance recommends cause i have a speedy NIN fantasy, but not my much because SkS really does screw a NIN over atm)

And still Im having trouble just moving on from your statement. " ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane."
there is so much hyperbole there and the fact is ranged rotations are not somehow magically harder than other role rotations.

[Neela]

Easy or not is not a reason to make 1500-2000 more dps.

This. Nothing more 2add.

[Dogempire]

But that's the thing. You are saying Ranged difficulty comes from "not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break"
But melee rotations are just as hard, if not even harder in the case of classes like NIN. so its not fair to use that as the defining metric. And SMN also has a far more difficult time with their GCDs and rotations than ANY bard. The only difficulty commonly innate to ranged is dealing with random procs altering their rotation (DNC feathers for example) but that is by far in large still easier to deal with than having to perfect double weave with 4 button pushes as NIN between a single gcd in and out.

My point here. Ranged DO NOT have difficult rotations. And if you want to talk CPM then ranged still aren't the highes with NIN and SMN out in front right now in that regard. And if we want to talk burst CPM than NIN far outdoes the other two in their burst moments, while having to also regard mechanics and stay in melee range. CPM is not a good measure of difficulty. My NIN CPM in Leviathin, A fight with downtime, averages at 48 CPM. 50 on voidwalker.
50. (given I run a slightly higher SkS than balance recommends cause i have a speedy NIN fantasy, but not my much because SkS really does screw a NIN over atm)

And still Im having trouble just moving on from your statement. " ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane."
there is so much hyperbole there and the fact is ranged rotations are not somehow magically harder than other role rotations.

Please point out where I said ranged rotations are harder than other role rotations.

I wasn't claiming that, I was saying that every role has its difficulties and that difficulty is subjective. To me summoner is easy but just tedious, but to other people summoner is hard as hell to play.

I really don't care for when people want to balance job damage around difficulty considering that black mage has the easiest rotation and the second best movement out of all casters, with red mage being the worst mobility, yet is the best dps in the game, and red mage, the job with the second easiest rotation is second lowest in rdps.

And yes, I know ninja is the highest cpm, but we're not talking about ninja, but good job bringing up your job and your higher cpm as if you're trying to prove something to the strawman you created while simultaneously putting down ranged players by saying their job is easy.

[Katie_Kitty]

-Consequently to all of the above: less party adaptation is necessary, and your pDPS really can't be negatively effected by anyone elses actions unless they get you killed.

Don't really have a dog in this fight, but I did want to point out: Putting this in as a benefit of being ranged is kind of disingenuous. "Less party adaptation is necessary" doesn't really help much when the adaptations that do need to be made most likely are being made by you specifically as a result of being ranged.

[Maero]

Sure that’s why my Eureka go to Cls was Blm hm? And also the amount of smn mentions in this thread hm? Cmn you are better than this, Maero ^^ People just can’t stand the truth if someone question facts about their mains... This has nothing to do with personal favors and the fact that u brought this irrelevant point which is not even true just shows you are out of arguments with substance yourself : /

Eureka i would hardly call content to gauge a job though... I hardly play smn but at least i can admit if i do not have that much experience.
Hence why discussions about smn about changes, etc... i never speak my mind because i do not have enough experience with it to talk.
You often comment in blm threads though, lol

And for the record blm is no longer my main i switched to RM in Stormblood after almost 5 years as blm and now i main DNC because RM well i do not wish to get into it..
I enjoy playing multiple jobs, not just one.

Also i was not arguing, just stating that your response to the person you quoted was equally irrelevant, lol
While true atm blm is stronger, history tends to repeat itself every expansion.. SE buff smn and eventually it is the strongest among casters.


Also not sure the notion some seem to think (in various different threads) that because a job has No utility that it is irrelevant and other jobs with Utility should be on par with them regardless.
Have seen a few people mention this in a few threads. The gap between jobs just needs to be closer,not on par but closer.

[Vendalwind]

Please point out where I said ranged rotations are harder than other role rotations.

Will do: Right here.

casters have to know how to slidecast and pre-position for mechanics and maintain as much uptime as possible, melee need to know how to be greedy and when to disengage/hit positionals or ignore positionals to keep the gcd rolling, and ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane.

In this sentence you divided dps into 3 groups, and labeled difficulty as inherently coming from three separate subjects. This directly implies that you think phys ranged's difficulty comes from its rotations (which is what you tied to it in your statement), and you even say so with extreme hyperbole: "even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane." if it was not your intent to suggest that ranged rotations were harder you should have chosen your words more carefully, as seen in context your statement about "hell breaking loose" is tied only to ranged dps rotations. That was why i took issue, because Melee also have to do exactly this, with some equivalently difficult if not more rotations, and with additional things to think about for uptime maintenance. And Casters have to do this to even more drastic effect everytime they have to move without insta casts available.

I wasn't claiming that,

But like I said, you absolutely implied it.

I was saying that every role has its difficulties and that difficulty is subjective.
...
And yes, I know ninja is the highest cpm, but we're not talking about ninja, but good job bringing up your job and your higher cpm as if you're trying to prove something to the strawman you created

Note your reference to EVERY ROLE. this is a conversation about balance of ranged compared to the rest of the roster. THUS if you only talk about ranged, you aren't on topic, and its funny because you literally in the same paragraph do it yourself (mention other classes) . Bringing up the class I have the most experience with is the easiest way for me to make comparisons, I also have played dancer in E1-E3 tho you wont find logs for it, and MNK. And DRK in E1, and AST in E1. So I do in fact have room to talk about relative difficulty to DNC.

Additionally bringing up NIN is no strawman for two reasons: A) This is conversation about balance as a whole, you cant cherry pick omit some classes. B) You can't knock down what I said anyways. your whole post didn't refute any of my statements but rather defended yourself and then simply claimed I was insulting people and straw-manning. If im not putting up a false statistic to be distractedly knocked down.... well I'm not strawmanning. I'm presenting information and perspective that happens to be very much on subject. (BALANCE OF THE DPS ROLES AS A WHOLE) I didn't present that information to distract, I presented it to compare.

Dogen you apparently don't know what strawman actually is. Flinging around fallacy names without properly identifying them is very poor practice.

AND CPM was not something I brought up, but something you presented without big picture view beyond saying 2nd 3rd etc. Before me.
I was in fact wrong about my CPM assessments and have gone and dug into it, you are in fact correct here. MCH, then BRD are faster than SMN. I was operating under the incorrect assumption that SMN had higher CPM than MCH or BRD.
Additionally I would agree CPM does not directly intuit difficulty, but it is a metric that somewhat attempts to represent it. And finally on the CPM subject would also say that higher CPM on a class with less mobility means more tho, because that directly reflects on time spent immobile while button mashing..
For actual informations sake
In E2 (as its the best fight for maximum cpm across classes evenly)

Top NINs have ~51 CPM (with lower skill speed than me, i need to step up my game!)
Top MCHs ~46
Top BRDs ~46
Top SAMs ~42-47 (really odd wide gap is the only one inconsistent across classes at top ten, different SkS means a lot tho to what SAM fillers in their rotations.)
Top MNKs ~43.5
Top SMNs ~42
Top DRGs ~39
Top RDMs ~37
Top BLMs ~ 31

the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th highest CPM

The above snip I THOUGHT was objectively FALSE thus i responded. Therefore I clarify with the above.

To me summoner is easy but just tedious, but to other people summoner is hard as hell to play.

I really don't care for when people want to balance job damage around difficulty considering that black mage has the easiest rotation and the second best movement out of all casters, with red mage being the worst mobility, yet is the best dps in the game, and red mage, the job with the second easiest rotation is second lowest in rdps.

Sadly so many people still claim RDM has the best mobility. I try to argue with them about how the one every other cast works out to be less actual in practice movement... because they cant breakneck run anything like a BLM on triple can.... but people dont get it. I personally don't disagree with the statements about BLM or RDM, but I dont have the personal experience to really support them either.

I'll also be clear on this. IMO ranged playing is in fact easy. I have played BRD on my Wife's account, and I have played DNC on my account. The amount of stress compared to NIN Is SO MUCH LESS in savages. I cant compare it to other melee tho cause i dont really play other melee in savage other than a minuscule amount on MNK. WHICH again is why i reference NIN. Its where my experience is. To me, Phys Ranged as a whole is much much less stressful to play than my NIN.

I will close by echo/ditto twisting your statement.
I personally really don't care for people that want to dismiss balancing job damage around difficulty solely because it is harder to measure, because in my opinion difficulty should very much be rewarded. That's something you'll just have to move on from because I will make all my posts, and have made all my posts with that in mind. And I also have to stop reacting to people that operate under the assumption that difficulty shouldn't be rewarding i guess.

[SaberMaxwell]

In all of that though, they admitted NIN and SMN weren't up to par with their design and both are getting modifications. A betting man would probably be safe in putting a lot on "they're gonna reduce CPM on both of those jobs."

[Kabooa]

In all of that though, they admitted NIN and SMN weren't up to par with their design and both are getting modifications. A betting man would probably be safe in putting a lot on "they're gonna reduce CPM on both of those jobs."

I'll place my wager on lower CPM for Summoner by boosting Egi Assault's potency and giving it a shared "Charge" that 1 and 2 share with a shorter cooldown but higher maximum charge.

Ninja will maintain its frequency but remove some of the punishing finger slip ups that occur during its learning curve (AKA Mudras being interrupted by everything). They could also stand to remove the animation lock on Assassinate, give charges of Assassinate per OGCD used (Not just DWD), and readjust the potency (moving it from the weaponskills into Assassinate, Ninjutsu, and DWD.)

[Vendalwind]

In all of that though, they admitted NIN and SMN weren't up to par with their design and both are getting modifications. A betting man would probably be safe in putting a lot on "they're gonna reduce CPM on both of those jobs."

That is true!

[Dogempire]

Snip.

I don't feel like replying to everything you said so I'll just say a few things:

First of all, just because you find certain jobs easy doesn't mean others will, I know you're trying to make yourself seem better than everyone, at least on a subconscious level, by talking about your apm and how easy bard is for you compared to playing ranged, but nobody cares. Literally nobody on here cares that you play ninja and find bard easy.

Second of all, not all melee classes are designed like ninja and require you to play the keyboard just to do a rotation. It's cool that you enjoy your class, but it doesn't give you the right to call other classes easy just because you play the one with the most inputs. I can agree with someone who says that the classes with more inputs shouldn't be at the bottom, but I can't agree with someone who claims an entire role is easier to play than a different one, especially the one that makes YOUR job easier by handling mechanics for you so you don't lose any uptime, that's just arrogant and shows how little you know of the other roles.

Lastly, every role has its rotationally easy classes, melee has samurai and dragoon (I think, haven't played it myself but it's what I heard), ranged has dancer as the easy class, and casters have red mage and black mage as the easy rotation classes. You're speaking from a perspective of playing the most rotationally ridiculous melee dps and comparing it to the dps that doesn't even have a set rotation and saying that ranged is easy. I know you mentioned bard, but honestly, if you're going to use personal experience to justify an opinion, don't use one that's so obviously biased to anyone who actually knows how every role plays.

Also a note for the future: Don't go into a ranged issues thread and claim that ranged is the easiest role, and proceed to lowkey brag about your cpm as a ninja as if anyone cares about who you are or how many buttons you press a minute. It's not going to work and you're not going to seem cool.