Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

[Vendalwind]

Please name the benefits.

All I can think of is the mobility.
Except if you play a BLM like a ranged DPS (Baiting mechanics and dodging like one), you'd actually do more damage than a ranged despite not having the ability to cast while moving.

Also while you are mentionning the OP, remind yourself that they are not only playing Ranged. OP also plays other jobs and has cleared Ultimate content as a Caster.

Mobility alone is a huge benefit, because it provides many other sub benefits, and just lumping it into the word mobility massively understates what makes any-range/any-time gcds and skills valuable.

-Not having to alter play, or adapt/recover rotations due to mechanics,
-less needing to know the fight down to your specific skill speeds impacts, because heavy movement phases wont change your rotations or cancel skills.
-less impact on your rotation from other team members,
-ability to recover or adjust from failures without having to neglect or intentionally screw up your skill casts or rotations.
-Never having to risk danger by sneaking in positional
-Never having to hug tight, or worry about more specific over positioning to maintain GCD or other skill up-time. Good example of this is in E2 during chaos/retribution. Melees can maintain perfect up-time even during cycles, BUT it is massively more difficult to do so than as a ranged.
-Consequently to all of the above: less party adaptation is necessary, and your pDPS really can't be negatively effected by anyone elses actions unless they get you killed.
-Ability to suffer knockbacks without stressing about interruption. if you get the move off you get the move off.
-varied different raid events such as uplift in E4 require less foresight and planning than casters who can be interrupted.

Given ranged do have abilities that make some of these not apply, such as DNC for example needing to be in near melee range from time to time to perform perfectly.

But the point is No cast times+ No ranged restrictions + no positionals is an absolute and immediate massive decrease in the difficulty compared to other roles.

This being siad, I don't think the range penalty should be anywhere near as big as it is. All ranged (minus BLM) right now need a significant buff, TBH their DPS should only be minimally behind the rest of the cast.

I also am of the apparent minority that thinks difficulty should be part of the metrics defining balance even tho it is arbitrarily hard to compare with fairness. (particularly because skill gaps in logs aren't accurate depictions due to the varying nature of auto attack's contributions on different classes/roles) Yet this is already in essence why ranged dps tax is considered justifiable at all.

People defending the ranged tax need to realize that they are directly using difficulty to justify balance. I see too many people on these forums go: "Difficulty shouldn't be considered for balance, it is its own reward" then literally say a moment later "Ranged should be taxed because they have mobility" Its literally hypocritical.

[Akiudo]

Mobility alone is a huge benefit, because it provides many other sub benefits, and just lumping it into the word mobility massively understates what makes any range/any time gcds and skills valuable.

gonna rearrange some of your points in my reply as i see at least some of them being better replied to as pairs or at least somewhat making the same point twice, if you feel i misrepresent your points feel free to call me out on that, i believe you at the least put quite some thought into your arguments so i don't want to come of as misrepresenting them even if i disagree.

-Not having to alter play, or adapt/recover rotations due to mechanics
-varied different raid events such as uplift in E4 require less foresight and planning than casters who can be interrupted.
-ability to recover or adjust from failures without having to neglect or intentionally screw up your skill casts or rotations.

that is a half truth, while most adapting for a ranged comes from downtime, and delaying things like cooldowns because of that hits everyone more or less equally if we talk "split second decision making" bard for example is rather high up compared to more strict classes that maybe have to look out for a single procc or can basically map out their whole rotation for the next 3 minutes in advance, i'm not even saying both these things are directly the same, but while some classes are quite reactive at their core others could basically do their rotation 100% exactly the same every single pull if there was no "adapting to the fight" necessary. Also you have to see that players are still humans, not having to recover rotations do to mechanics may be true at its core, but in reality people, especially if they have to do some "last second unexpected save because something went wrong before" will still mess up their rotation in that situation, and if anything having a stricter rotation can in that case actually help you stay on track compared to feeling overhelmed because something went wrong.

Now if you are a really great player, the guy that does 90% parses the try he died and otherwise runs all gold than yes, you can probably keep everything up perfectly fine as a ranged even if shit hits the fan, but in that case ->

-less impact on your rotation from other team members

would become basically a non factor, if you are so good nothing can startle you and you just do a perfect job with nerves of steel than your team members should not mess up in ways that hinder your rotation to a meaningfull degree. this obviously works on the assumption that your team plays on the same level as you, but as we can never balance for every single eventuality balancing for a team of somewhat equal skill level is the lost logical, because while that is not necessary allways true, if you are a "allways gold" type of player and your team is lucky if the group average is blue class balance is the least thing holding back you in particular, or at least it should be if the balance is even semi-decent.

-Never having to risk danger by sneaking in positional
-Never having to hug tight, or worry about more specific over positioning to maintain GCD or other skill uptime.

here you are literally making the same point twice, just that you elaborate more on it the second time, not even disagreeing on the point in general, but is still the same argument twice in a row

Good example of this is in E2 during chaos/retribution. Melees can maintain perfect uptime even during cycles, BUT it is massively more difficult to do so than as a ranged.

and while that is true and i do believe perfect uptime where it can be achieved has to result in somewhat higher dps for the simple fact that in situations where it can't be achieved these classes would otherwise fall behind just as much or more than they would be ahead with some "here are your 150 dps extra for playing like you where glued to the boss" bonus i do have to mention that being the melee often means having less responsibility (and in a perfect world we would have a 1/1/1 +1of whatever dps distribution). i mostly raid in random groups right now, which means that i had some 3 ranged groups meaning i could take the melee spot, let me assure you that even as bard taking the melee position is a ton more relaxing than having the ranged spot, just yesterday i had the pleasure of taking a melee spot in e2s and basically didn't have to move an inch from my position, whereas as ranged normally i have to run in and out constantly to stay in heal range for group heals while otherwise running out all the time for things like darkfire III or taking the far away puddles in between again getting close to the boss so i can stack with my partner for the white/black markers while as a melee i can more or less plant my ass on the boss and be done.

-Consequently to all of the above: less party adaptation is necessary, and your pDPS really can't be negatively effected by anyone elses actions unless they get you killed.

again, you are basically just repeating what you allready said, which is fine to end the paragraph but isn't really a point on its own, the way you list it however makes it look like one.

-Ability to suffer knockbacks without stressing about interruption. if you get the move off you get the move off.

this is somewhat fair, though most knockbacks right now the main priority by far is "will it kick me off the platform" and at least bard (can't talk for the other 2 phys ranged) lacks a gap closer, you don't need it to do damage, fine, but if your position is "as close to the boss as possible" as is generally the case for melee than charging instantly to the boss is great to keep downtime low AND getting back in position, and as these things have charges knockbacks really shouldn't be a problem for a competent melee. yes, this doesn't work out that way in a potential 3 melee comp, but considering the class distribution theres zero reason why something like that should be encouraged, and a third ranged even with "freedom of movement" doesn't really offer anything either as again, just take the melee spot and just play a melee with less health and armor (which in fact can save your ass on some mechanics).

Given ranged do have abilities that make some of these not apply, such as DNC for example needing to be in near melee range from time to time to perform perfectly.

completly aside from "needing to be in or near melee range" from time to time being in melee range in general is in fact preferable most of the time it's where you will get group heals, and as melees have to be able to get out in case of mechanics where you have to move away max melee range/very slightly behind max melee range is pretty much your ideal position to a)get heals, b)be able to move in/out as necessary,in theory its great being able to stay 3 quarters of the arena away from the boss and still hit it, in practice it will get you killed on the first big aoe as you missed every single heal the group got as they stood close to the boss.

But the point is No cast times+ No ranged restrictions + no positionals is an absolute and immediate massive decrease in the difficulty compared to other roles.

that is kinda double dipping, mind you i don't think intentionally but nonetheless, while all the things you called out are true, in practice its allways just half of them. casters don't have range restrictions or positionals (and again, the whole "can stay in max range" thing is mostly usefull IF their are mechanics to handle, of which we will probably never get a situation where 3 people will have to do it, it will 95% be down to two designed players, otherwise 4 so in practice at the point you got 2 ranged, physical or caster you are set either way), and melees have no cast times. Like yes, that is obvious when you think about it, but people often use the argument of "you don't have A B and C to deal with, your life is so much easier than mine" while ignoring that they themselves only have to deal with a single out of 3,5,20 things they quoted.

This being siad, I don't think the range penalty should be anywhere near as big as it is. All ranged (minus BLM) right now need a significant buff, TBH their DPS should only be minimally behind the rest of the cast.

see, now thats where i'm generally with you, i do think their needs to be some form of "ranged adjustement" i just don't think it should make them generally weaker than others, fact of the matter is melees (and to a way lesser extent casters) need to have a slight advantage in a perfect scenario, otherwise they could never compete in a scenario that well, is not perfect. i do however think that should just be that, having them stronger in an ideal case in way which kinda gets muddled down like "super mega awesome uptime fight, melee leads by 150-300 dps"->"average fight, classes are as equal as the balance team can manage"->"holy shit this fight is so much running...., ranged actually should have the advantage". Because that is what their advantage is, they shine when movement is needed, if even if movement is needed they still don't outshine others that advantage is overtaxed.

I also am of the apparent minority that thinks difficulty should be part of the metrics defining balance even tho it is arbitrarily hard to compare with fairness. (particularily because skill gaps in logs aren't accurate depictions because of the varying nature of auto attack's contributions on different classes/roles) Yet this is already in essence why ranged dps tax is considered justifiable at all.

People defending the ranged tax need to realize that they are directly using difficulty to justify balance. I see too many people on these forums go: "Difficulty shouldn't be considered for balance, it is its own reward" then literally say a moment later "Ranged should be taxed because they have mobility" Its literally hypocritical.

a very good point and while i will indeed sit tightly in the "difficulty should not define balance", if nothing else than because its factually way to subjective (bear in mind if you argue for balancing around difficulty that would have to be done for every class as obviously not every melee is equal either, and neither is every caster if your interest really is a fair balance) i'm not gonna argue on your principals, its a fair opinion, and yes, way to many people are pretty hypocritical if it suits their point

[Vendalwind]

Snip

Im quite happy with all your counterpoints Thanks for the reflection on my points and further detail.

[Dogempire]

But the point is No cast times+ No ranged restrictions + no positionals is an absolute and immediate massive decrease in the difficulty compared to other roles.

Not really, all dps roles have skillsets a person needs to have to be able to optimize a class, casters have to know how to slidecast and pre-position for mechanics and maintain as much uptime as possible, melee need to know how to be greedy and when to disengage/hit positionals or ignore positionals to keep the gcd rolling, and ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane.

At the moment the average machinist has an CPM of 45.1, Bard has a CPM of 43.5, and DNC has a CPM of 38.4, the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th highest CPM classes respectively. Ranged has some of the busiest rotations, and despite being constantly busy you're expected to bait certain mechanics so melee don't have to do them and can keep their precious uptime.

That is to say, melee, casters, and ranged all have different playstyles, they each have their own respective difficulties and people who think ranged is easy probably haven't played it enough.

[Vendalwind]

Not really, all dps roles have skillsets a person needs to have to be able to optimize a class, casters have to know how to slidecast and pre-position for mechanics and maintain as much uptime as possible, melee need to know how to be greedy and when to disengage/hit positionals or ignore positionals to keep the gcd rolling, and ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane.

At the moment the average machinist has an CPM of 45.1, Bard has a CPM of 43.5, and DNC has a CPM of 38.4, the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th highest CPM classes respectively. Ranged has some of the busiest rotations, and despite being constantly busy you're expected to bait certain mechanics so melee don't have to do them and can keep their precious uptime.

That is to say, melee, casters, and ranged all have different playstyles, they each have their own respective difficulties and people who think ranged is easy probably haven't played it enough.

But that's the thing. You are saying Ranged difficulty comes from "not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break"
But melee rotations are just as hard, if not even harder in the case of classes like NIN. so its not fair to use that as the defining metric. And SMN also has a far more difficult time with their GCDs and rotations than ANY bard. The only difficulty commonly innate to ranged is dealing with random procs altering their rotation (DNC feathers for example) but that is by far in large still easier to deal with than having to perfect double weave with 4 button pushes as NIN between a single gcd in and out.

My point here. Ranged DO NOT have difficult rotations. And if you want to talk CPM then ranged still aren't the highes with NIN and SMN out in front right now in that regard. And if we want to talk burst CPM than NIN far outdoes the other two in their burst moments, while having to also regard mechanics and stay in melee range. CPM is not a good measure of difficulty. My NIN CPM in Leviathin, A fight with downtime, averages at 48 CPM. 50 on voidwalker.
50. (given I run a slightly higher SkS than balance recommends cause i have a speedy NIN fantasy, but not my much because SkS really does screw a NIN over atm)

And still Im having trouble just moving on from your statement. " ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane."
there is so much hyperbole there and the fact is ranged rotations are not somehow magically harder than other role rotations.

[Dogempire]

But that's the thing. You are saying Ranged difficulty comes from "not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break"
But melee rotations are just as hard, if not even harder in the case of classes like NIN. so its not fair to use that as the defining metric. And SMN also has a far more difficult time with their GCDs and rotations than ANY bard. The only difficulty commonly innate to ranged is dealing with random procs altering their rotation (DNC feathers for example) but that is by far in large still easier to deal with than having to perfect double weave with 4 button pushes as NIN between a single gcd in and out.

My point here. Ranged DO NOT have difficult rotations. And if you want to talk CPM then ranged still aren't the highes with NIN and SMN out in front right now in that regard. And if we want to talk burst CPM than NIN far outdoes the other two in their burst moments, while having to also regard mechanics and stay in melee range. CPM is not a good measure of difficulty. My NIN CPM in Leviathin, A fight with downtime, averages at 48 CPM. 50 on voidwalker.
50. (given I run a slightly higher SkS than balance recommends cause i have a speedy NIN fantasy, but not my much because SkS really does screw a NIN over atm)

And still Im having trouble just moving on from your statement. " ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane."
there is so much hyperbole there and the fact is ranged rotations are not somehow magically harder than other role rotations.

Please point out where I said ranged rotations are harder than other role rotations.

I wasn't claiming that, I was saying that every role has its difficulties and that difficulty is subjective. To me summoner is easy but just tedious, but to other people summoner is hard as hell to play.

I really don't care for when people want to balance job damage around difficulty considering that black mage has the easiest rotation and the second best movement out of all casters, with red mage being the worst mobility, yet is the best dps in the game, and red mage, the job with the second easiest rotation is second lowest in rdps.

And yes, I know ninja is the highest cpm, but we're not talking about ninja, but good job bringing up your job and your higher cpm as if you're trying to prove something to the strawman you created while simultaneously putting down ranged players by saying their job is easy.

[Vendalwind]

Please point out where I said ranged rotations are harder than other role rotations.

Will do: Right here.

casters have to know how to slidecast and pre-position for mechanics and maintain as much uptime as possible, melee need to know how to be greedy and when to disengage/hit positionals or ignore positionals to keep the gcd rolling, and ranged need to maintain focus and not mess up their rotation even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane.

In this sentence you divided dps into 3 groups, and labeled difficulty as inherently coming from three separate subjects. This directly implies that you think phys ranged's difficulty comes from its rotations (which is what you tied to it in your statement), and you even say so with extreme hyperbole: "even if the ground breaks and the depths of hell break open as Satan's army begins its attack on the mortal plane." if it was not your intent to suggest that ranged rotations were harder you should have chosen your words more carefully, as seen in context your statement about "hell breaking loose" is tied only to ranged dps rotations. That was why i took issue, because Melee also have to do exactly this, with some equivalently difficult if not more rotations, and with additional things to think about for uptime maintenance. And Casters have to do this to even more drastic effect everytime they have to move without insta casts available.

I wasn't claiming that,

But like I said, you absolutely implied it.

I was saying that every role has its difficulties and that difficulty is subjective.
...
And yes, I know ninja is the highest cpm, but we're not talking about ninja, but good job bringing up your job and your higher cpm as if you're trying to prove something to the strawman you created

Note your reference to EVERY ROLE. this is a conversation about balance of ranged compared to the rest of the roster. THUS if you only talk about ranged, you aren't on topic, and its funny because you literally in the same paragraph do it yourself (mention other classes) . Bringing up the class I have the most experience with is the easiest way for me to make comparisons, I also have played dancer in E1-E3 tho you wont find logs for it, and MNK. And DRK in E1, and AST in E1. So I do in fact have room to talk about relative difficulty to DNC.

Additionally bringing up NIN is no strawman for two reasons: A) This is conversation about balance as a whole, you cant cherry pick omit some classes. B) You can't knock down what I said anyways. your whole post didn't refute any of my statements but rather defended yourself and then simply claimed I was insulting people and straw-manning. If im not putting up a false statistic to be distractedly knocked down.... well I'm not strawmanning. I'm presenting information and perspective that happens to be very much on subject. (BALANCE OF THE DPS ROLES AS A WHOLE) I didn't present that information to distract, I presented it to compare.

Dogen you apparently don't know what strawman actually is. Flinging around fallacy names without properly identifying them is very poor practice.

AND CPM was not something I brought up, but something you presented without big picture view beyond saying 2nd 3rd etc. Before me.
I was in fact wrong about my CPM assessments and have gone and dug into it, you are in fact correct here. MCH, then BRD are faster than SMN. I was operating under the incorrect assumption that SMN had higher CPM than MCH or BRD.
Additionally I would agree CPM does not directly intuit difficulty, but it is a metric that somewhat attempts to represent it. And finally on the CPM subject would also say that higher CPM on a class with less mobility means more tho, because that directly reflects on time spent immobile while button mashing..
For actual informations sake
In E2 (as its the best fight for maximum cpm across classes evenly)

Top NINs have ~51 CPM (with lower skill speed than me, i need to step up my game!)
Top MCHs ~46
Top BRDs ~46
Top SAMs ~42-47 (really odd wide gap is the only one inconsistent across classes at top ten, different SkS means a lot tho to what SAM fillers in their rotations.)
Top MNKs ~43.5
Top SMNs ~42
Top DRGs ~39
Top RDMs ~37
Top BLMs ~ 31

the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th highest CPM

The above snip I THOUGHT was objectively FALSE thus i responded. Therefore I clarify with the above.

To me summoner is easy but just tedious, but to other people summoner is hard as hell to play.

I really don't care for when people want to balance job damage around difficulty considering that black mage has the easiest rotation and the second best movement out of all casters, with red mage being the worst mobility, yet is the best dps in the game, and red mage, the job with the second easiest rotation is second lowest in rdps.

Sadly so many people still claim RDM has the best mobility. I try to argue with them about how the one every other cast works out to be less actual in practice movement... because they cant breakneck run anything like a BLM on triple can.... but people dont get it. I personally don't disagree with the statements about BLM or RDM, but I dont have the personal experience to really support them either.

I'll also be clear on this. IMO ranged playing is in fact easy. I have played BRD on my Wife's account, and I have played DNC on my account. The amount of stress compared to NIN Is SO MUCH LESS in savages. I cant compare it to other melee tho cause i dont really play other melee in savage other than a minuscule amount on MNK. WHICH again is why i reference NIN. Its where my experience is. To me, Phys Ranged as a whole is much much less stressful to play than my NIN.

I will close by echo/ditto twisting your statement.
I personally really don't care for people that want to dismiss balancing job damage around difficulty solely because it is harder to measure, because in my opinion difficulty should very much be rewarded. That's something you'll just have to move on from because I will make all my posts, and have made all my posts with that in mind. And I also have to stop reacting to people that operate under the assumption that difficulty shouldn't be rewarding i guess.

[Dogempire]

Snip.

I don't feel like replying to everything you said so I'll just say a few things:

First of all, just because you find certain jobs easy doesn't mean others will, I know you're trying to make yourself seem better than everyone, at least on a subconscious level, by talking about your apm and how easy bard is for you compared to playing ranged, but nobody cares. Literally nobody on here cares that you play ninja and find bard easy.

Second of all, not all melee classes are designed like ninja and require you to play the keyboard just to do a rotation. It's cool that you enjoy your class, but it doesn't give you the right to call other classes easy just because you play the one with the most inputs. I can agree with someone who says that the classes with more inputs shouldn't be at the bottom, but I can't agree with someone who claims an entire role is easier to play than a different one, especially the one that makes YOUR job easier by handling mechanics for you so you don't lose any uptime, that's just arrogant and shows how little you know of the other roles.

Lastly, every role has its rotationally easy classes, melee has samurai and dragoon (I think, haven't played it myself but it's what I heard), ranged has dancer as the easy class, and casters have red mage and black mage as the easy rotation classes. You're speaking from a perspective of playing the most rotationally ridiculous melee dps and comparing it to the dps that doesn't even have a set rotation and saying that ranged is easy. I know you mentioned bard, but honestly, if you're going to use personal experience to justify an opinion, don't use one that's so obviously biased to anyone who actually knows how every role plays.

Also a note for the future: Don't go into a ranged issues thread and claim that ranged is the easiest role, and proceed to lowkey brag about your cpm as a ninja as if anyone cares about who you are or how many buttons you press a minute. It's not going to work and you're not going to seem cool.

[Vendalwind]

I know you're trying to make yourself seem better than everyone, at least on a subconscious level, by talking about your apm and how easy bard is for you compared to playing ranged, but nobody cares. Literally nobody on here cares that you play ninja and find bard easy.

False. not once was I trying to brag, float my own boat, or lift myself up with comments about my skill. Not a single moment. The CPM segment was a moment of just pure investigative interest, that if you didn't notice led to me realizing one of my earlier assumptions was in fact wrong. Additionally I can play the troll card here a bit since you keep calling me out and I'll respond in turn.
You seem to care. Care so much about me being a NIN main that you've decided my opinion is so biased its invalid. What impressive ability to shut people out that is!

Second of all, not all melee classes are designed like ninja and require you to play the keyboard just to do a rotation. It's cool that you enjoy your class, but it doesn't give you the right to call other classes easy just because you play the one with the most inputs. I can agree with someone who says that the classes with more inputs shouldn't be at the bottom, but I can't agree with someone who claims an entire role is easier to play than a different one, especially the one that makes YOUR job easier by handling mechanics for you so you don't lose any uptime, that's just arrogant and shows how little you know of the other roles.

Fine disagree, just stop personal attacking me with false accusations of strawman and then basically all the above. Did you not notice that I play a class at 80 in every role available in the game? (except Caster on this character) And despite that I still frequently say I dont have enough experience with these classes to really have an opinion? you possess a funny idea of arrogance.

Snip the rest.

Not here to seem cool. Im here cause I care about the balance of the game. I want ranged buffed, but I also want to dismantle false logic that is routinely spread to ruin what I hope the game balance will be like.
I'm here to talk about the game, the balance, and how ranged DPS need a buff. I'm also here to talk about why people argue against it, and to generally combat what are, in my opinion, foolish or misguided notions of balance. One of the first posts of mine you decided to attack was literally not me saying ranged should be weaker, but me explaining why mobility itself is such a massive boon in light of people underestimating it's its ability to reduce difficulty.

Even if i spoke in some too divisive absolutes my intent was solely to shed further light on why mobility is such a boon.

If you wish to continue with an actual valuable conversation, perhaps you could touch on what elements ranged possess that are inherently difficult? literally exactly like Akuido did?
Please do that instead of making assumptions in a passive aggressive form of personally attacking me.