Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Shurrikhan]

Trust me, I'd love to get rid of and so would Wayfinder. Sucks to be the only role who needs to be balanced by an inherently negative utility like raise.

Except, historically, SMN hasn't been balanced around Raise, unless its cost for having Raise still left them with more rDPS than BLM except at the tail end of each expansion/iteration.

Likewise, late-SB RDM rDPS in its optimal compositions was neck-and-neck with BLM -- again, despite having Verraise.

[Zerathor]

BLM was considered bad in 4.0-4.3 because it brought less damage than Summoner. Caster res had nothing to do with it other than adding salt in the wound. When it got buffed and became meta, it was considered good by the broader public. No asterisks about caster raise at all; nobody cared.

It was considered 'acceptable ' by a broader public. And still a stigma in prog.

Except, historically, SMN hasn't been balanced around Raise, unless its cost for having Raise still left them with more rDPS than BLM except at the tail end of each expansion/iteration.

Likewise, late-SB RDM rDPS in its optimal compositions was neck-and-neck with BLM -- again, despite having Verraise.

It should have been. The fact it previously wasn't doesn't mean it was right.

[SaberMaxwell]

See, I always leaned towards "Role Action", because then you can very easily tune it to be a nifty, desirable thing. At the time, this was specifically because without raise, there was a real possibility of the ole Machinist / Bard set up coming back in. They brought every utility the caster role did but better, and played well they weren't slouches on damage.

Just like. 5 minute cooldown, instant cast, no death penalty. In today's climate though, I am definitely leaning more on the 'just get rid of it' side of things, but a part of me still very much wants more stuff, not less, across all the jobs.

I'm just of the (apparently) unpopular opinion that, if I want to play a caster known for healing and support... I have Astro, White Mage, and Scholar to choose from. I always saw the discrepancy between damage casters and healer casters as damage casters being especially tuned to deal lots of damage through magical destruction.

Yet in StB and ShB we have 3 healers, 1 pseudo healer, 1 rubix cube with a raise, and one magical nuke machine.

[SaberMaxwell]

Except, historically, SMN hasn't been balanced around Raise, unless its cost for having Raise still left them with more rDPS than BLM except at the tail end of each expansion/iteration.

Likewise, late-SB RDM rDPS in its optimal compositions was neck-and-neck with BLM -- again, despite having Verraise.

Well that's what Kabooa and Zera are saying. It wasn't balanced around caster raise (as hard) back then, and because of it Black Mage was by and large neglected.

My point stands: sucks we are the only role that *needs* to keep this in mind.

[aiqa]

And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

If mobility makes a significant difference that is already accounted for in dps parses.
Counting mobility on top of parses is counting it twice, which you obviously should not do.
And you can set arbitrary value on having a raise, but going by anecdotal evidence in this thread (which you even implicitly agreed with) when balancing DPS the value of a raise is close to 0.

[AikenDrum]

I sincerely doubt the party struggling to meet an enrage with no deaths is going to get more mileage by swapping their caster to Black Mage compared to, I don't know, tightening up their rotations.

If there are no deaths what's the point of having rdm there?

[Shurrikhan]

It should have been. The fact it previously wasn't doesn't mean it was right.

"Should have been" =/= a development precedent. Our precedent is 3 expansions of SMN rDPS outperforming BLM early on and then outperformed by BLM by expansion's end by only the slimmest of rDPS margins if any. We have only 1 expansion of history for RDM, but that, too, ended with no "Raise tax", only necessary balancing.

So where, exactly is the "we're obviously losing DPS because we have Raise" rule coming from? 3 expansions without a Raise tax for one caster. Poor balancing being rectified for the other. How is this obviously "Raise tax" and not "poor balancing" now?

Where are the quotes in which Yoshida -- having actually communicated comprehensively with his battle design team for once -- said that SMN and RDM should have less rDPS than BLM because they have Raise, despite dismissing BLM's concerns over this for three iterations (ARR, HW, SB) running?

[Wayfinder3]

And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

If we're talking Mobile casters, just by looking at their kits. BLM is the most mobile as it has the most tools that require no DPS loss. SMN would be the 2nd as even though Ruin 2 is a potency loss, it's a gain if you would use an OGCD and their are windows where your cast times are reduced to your recast time giving you instant movement. RDM would be the least as Dualcast isn't consistent, Melee combo requires the melee range position, and Reprise is never a dps gain and is a stretch used for alignment.

If mobility is the deciding factor. RDM would be the strongest caster as they need to have perfect positioning for their inconsistent burst windows. Luckily thats not the case as i don't believe their mobility is that much worse than BLM and is pretty close to SMNs. But just know that BLM IS THE MOST MOBILE CASTER IN THIS GAME no amount of dualcast can compete with movement abilities you can store and use whenever you want

[Kabooa]

If we're talking Mobile casters, just by looking at their kits. BLM is the most mobile as it has the most tools that require no DPS loss. SMN would be the 2nd as even though Ruin 2 is a potency loss, it's a gain if you would use an OGCD and their are windows where your cast times are reduced to your recast time giving you instant movement. RDM would be the least as Dualcast isn't consistent, Melee combo requires the melee range position, and Reprise is never a dps gain and is a stretch used for alignment.

If mobility is the deciding factor. RDM would be the strongest caster as they need to have perfect positioning for their inconsistent burst windows. Luckily thats not the case as i don't believe their mobility is that much worse than BLM and is pretty close to SMNs. But just know that BLM IS THE MOST MOBILE CASTER IN THIS GAME no amount of dualcast can compete with movement abilities you can store and use whenever you want

Black mage has 20 +2.5 / proc seconds of movement per 60 seconds, +however much leylines / AM can net you.

Red mage needs more math (I forgot to take into account that Mana gauge has a cap. Obviously, a Red Mage would not overcap and thus the real amount of movement per minute takes more consideration.)

From a very basic level, 8 dual casts (16 GCDs) nets approximately 24 seconds of movement and between 68/68 to 82/82 mana. Up to 2 more dualcasts can occur here, though with potential to overcap on Mana.

An unlikely case of Melee combo being usable while on the move to the next destination adds a potential 10.5

Enchanted Reprise is basically Scathe and wants to be avoided if possible.

From a basic standpoint then, the Red Mage has approximately 24 seconds of movement per minute, +10.5 if a Melee Combo can line up with needed movement. We exclude Reprise because, like Scathe, we don't like to talk about it.

The question is whether or not the movement can be utilized in a positive manner. Were there smaller bouts of micromovement, the Red Mage would probably come ahead here, but as our weak mage legs tend to require movement every 30-60s, the Red Mage loses out.

Bolded is emphasis on what the jobs both have without question. Everything else is a YMMV set up favoring Black Mage. Aether skating is pretty sweet.

Not included is the Summoner having to pay a toll every time they take a step, but no one likes them anyways.

[SaberMaxwell]

Most specifically the ability to bank that mobility for when you need it is what makes BLM's mobility better than Red Mage's. Red Mage has no answer for pantokrator style mechanics that doesn't involve losing potency or praying to God you're in a melee window / said pantokrator mechanic even allows you to be in melee (see first orbs phase with ranged baiting)