Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Siccoroa]

Can we talk about how monk, dragoon, black mage, and, to a lesser extent, samurai are overpowered right now?

Currently i think that smn, mch, nin, brd, rdm, and dnc are all well balanced number wise, no matter which of those you choose to play they all bring roughly the same raid dps. The difference in dps between smn, the highest dps, and dnc, the lowest dps, is less than 300 raid dps.

For comparison, sam does 500 more raid dps than smn. Drg does 900 more raid dps than smn. Blm does 1000 more raid dps than smn. Mnk does a whopping 1200 more raid dps than smn.

In my opinion it would be much better for the balance of the game if every dps brought roughly the same amount of raid dps.

Source for dps numbers: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=90

Edit: Explanation for raid DPS vs personal dps

The site in question uses "rDPS" to mean [personal DPS contribution + indirect/party DPS contribution - indirect/party DPS contribution received from others], i.e. the damage you bring to the raid, not just the damage contribution you generate through the raid.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Can we talk about how monk, dragoon, black mage, and, to a lesser extent, samurai are overpowered right now?

Currently i think that smn, mch, nin, brd, rdm, and dnc are all well balanced number wise, no matter which of those you choose to play they all bring roughly the same raid dps. The difference in dps between smn, the highest dps, and dnc, the lowest dps, is less than 300 raid dps.

For comparison, sam does 500 more raid dps than smn. Drg does 900 more raid dps than smn. Blm does 1000 more raid dps than smn. Mnk does a whopping 1200 more raid dps than smn.

In my opinion it would be much better for the balance of the game if every dps brought roughly the same amount of raid dps.

Source for dps numbers: https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&dataset=90

Dps differences between pure dpsers and those with utility is around their actual dps, not their rdps. Rdps is the addition of contribution. Sam is underpowered, and monk got too big of a buff (some of it was needed)

You dont want to balance around rdps specifically tho you need to take it into an account, for instance nin was behind dragoon by 1.5 ish and their TA didnt even make up the difference.

As for wanting the same rdps... you dont want that. Thatll make any dps utility redundant, as dps utilities are meant to be worked with (not apply and forget about it like pugs do) why have extra work for the same damage? You want pdps to change according to utility, but depending on that utility needs to scale according to its purpose.

Honesty SAM got shafted here, monk got top strong, and honestly smn and rdm need to be brought up

[Shurrikhan]

Dps differences between pure dpsers and those with utility is around their actual dps, not their rdps. Rdps is the addition of contribution. Sam is underpowered, and monk got too big of a buff (some of it was needed)

You dont want to balance around rdps specifically tho you need to take it into an account, for instance nin was behind dragoon by 1.5 ish and their TA didnt even make up the difference.

As for wanting the same rdps... you dont want that. Thatll make any dps utility redundant, as dps utilities are meant to be worked with (not apply and forget about it like pugs do) why have extra work for the same damage? You want pdps to change according to utility, but depending on that utility needs to scale according to its purpose.

Honesty SAM got shafted here, monk got top strong, and honestly smn and rdm need to be brought up

The site in question uses "rDPS" to mean [personal DPS contribution + indirect/party DPS contribution - indirect/party DPS contribution received from others], i.e. the damage you bring to the raid, not just the damage contribution you generate through the raid. We might as well use the terms used by the sole host of our relevant data if we're going to have meaningful discussion. (I too preferred pDPS, rDPS, and tDPS for total contribution, but whatever. Better clarity than precision in this case.)

[Myon88]

You dont want to balance around rdps specifically tho you need to take it into an account, for instance nin was behind dragoon by 1.5 ish and their TA didnt even make up the difference.

You have things the wrong way around. Rdps is exactly the thing you want to balance jobs around, while pdps is the thing you should be ignoring when looking at job balance. If a blm does 15k when a dancer partners him, and that dancer is doing 9k, it's obviously a skewed comparison because some of the work done by the dancer is going to the blm instead. When you look at rdps you're attributing things correctly to the source of that damage, so that blm would look more like 13.5k, and the dancer would be at 10.5k or something.

As for wanting the same rdps... you dont want that. Thatll make any dps utility redundant, as dps utilities are meant to be worked with (not apply and forget about it like pugs do) why have extra work for the same damage? You want pdps to change according to utility, but depending on that utility needs to scale according to its purpose.

No, that's exactly what you want. In an ideal case, when looking at the jobs sorted by rdps every job should have a bar exactly the same length as each other. It's the opposite in fact, the support jobs are doing extra work for less damage, while the selfish jobs can just do the same thing they always do in every party while also contributing the most damage.

When selfish jobs like blm are still on top even when you look at things from an rdps standpoint, that should tell you that something is seriously wrong with the balance between the selfish and support oriented jobs. If a dancer does not add as much value to the group as another blm, why would you not just bring 2 blm's instead of a blm and a dancer instead? It must feel horrible being a dancer outside of raids too, in light parties you only buff 3 other people so your rdps is reduced while a blm is only reliant on themselves, let alone solo content in the open world. Might as well just play blm and be the king of the game everywhere.

We are going to reach the point soon where people realize bringing another melee or blm is better than having any of the ranged in the party at all. Even the 1% mainstat buff you get for bringing a ranged, or the LB penalty won't be enough to outweigh the sheer gains.

[Dnc]

Before I say anything, I don't know if MNK dps warrants that big of a difference, and maybe it could be toned down a bit? But...

Monk is one of the jobs I feel like should always be at the top end of the charts. Simply because its a pure melee job, and its rotation is one of the busiest with positionals in pretty much every weaponskill. That coupled with having to manage Greased Lightning at all times. That's a boatload of button presses to be made to be optimal. And yes, I'm counting the WASD key presses. It would be a disservice towards monk if someone else did as much dps with less effort.

[Seraphor]

Before I say anything, I don't know if MNK dps warrants that big of a difference, and maybe it could be toned down a bit? But...

Monk is one of the jobs I feel like should always be at the top end of the charts. Simply because its a pure melee job, and its rotation is one of the busiest with positionals in pretty much every weaponskill. That coupled with having to manage Greased Lightning at all times. That's a boatload of button presses to be made to be optimal. And yes, I'm counting the WASD key presses. It would be a disservice towards monk if someone else did as much dps with less effort.

But MNK has some party utility.
Meanwhile SAM is pure selfish DPS. so surely SAM should be top of the pile?

[Kabooa]

Sure.

Just get rid of every single utility every job brings outside the role menu.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Job DPS is determined by raid utility and difficulty. SMN and Nin needs to be brought up badly. As for the rest, don't be surprised that your RDM isn't doing SAM level DPS when it's the easiest job in the game.

[Kejara]

Job DPS is determined by raid utility and difficulty. SMN and Nin needs to be brought up badly. As for the rest, don't be surprised that your RDM isn't doing SAM level DPS when it's the easiest job in the game.

If what you say about it being determined by difficulty is indeed true and not your personal opinion then it is a terrible way to balance a game. "Easiness" is entirely subjective. What makes a class easier? Less APM? Less overall abilities? Easier and overall more repetitive button sequences? Cast times or lack thereof? A game should never be based on whether someone believes a class to be "easier". RDM still has cast bars and many people hate casting because they feel constrained by having to stand in place. I hope nobody truly expects RDM to do SAM/MNK/DRG/BLM damage and I'm sure your statement was pure hyperbole but its current placement in the DPS hierarchy is certainly not warranted, regardless of whether you or anybody else for that matter, believes it to be easy. People pick a job, I hope, at least the majority of the time, because they enjoy the way it plays in game content. Any of the classes can be mastered fairly easily with enough repetition and difficulty is relative. Mastering difficult encounter mechanics while coordinating with seven other guys is the real challenge here. Currently, RDM is second to only Ninja in the amount of parses submitted to FF logs. Here's a hint. There probably exists a positive correlation between log submission counts for a particular class and class effectiveness/popularity. I suppose RDM is that low on the totem pole because it's just too easy for everybody and it has nothing to do with the fact that people tend to pick jobs that are the most effective in clearing content.

[TaiyouSeishin]

NIN is nullifying its own utility to the point where TA is practically a nonfactor. (Even with top dps comp itll only provide somewhere around 1000 rdps, and this does not make up for where its lacking compared to its counterparts even WITHOUT their utilities)

Most SMN amd rdm are so tired of being slapped in the face over their rez they want it gone. There is a point when the raise is useless and the dps checks and enrage timers are not being met. So they want at least some more damage.

The ranged tax is heavier in this one than in other games, and if ppl agree with it fine, but considering mch is the most pure dps of the 3, it should be higher... imo