Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Zerathor]

Median pDPS difference between SMN and BLM for Alphascape savage was 140 higher pDPS for BLM, and that is not even counting SMN raid buffs.
So when adding in SMN raid buff that would be close to 0 difference.
Median rDPS difference between SMN and BLM for Eden Gate savage is 790 higher rDPS for BLM.

And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

[aiqa]

And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

If mobility makes a significant difference that is already accounted for in dps parses.
Counting mobility on top of parses is counting it twice, which you obviously should not do.
And you can set arbitrary value on having a raise, but going by anecdotal evidence in this thread (which you even implicitly agreed with) when balancing DPS the value of a raise is close to 0.

[Zerathor]

If mobility makes a significant difference that is already accounted for in dps parses.
Counting mobility on top of parses is counting it twice, which you obviously should not do.
And you can set arbitrary value on having a raise, but going by anecdotal evidence in this thread (which you even implicitly agreed with) when balancing DPS the value of a raise is close to 0.

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

If the bulk of blm rotation was a gcd/sub gcd cast time like rdm, I would slide cast across the arena without needing those tools. Which you can do without lining up cooldowns for long extended movement. Also xenoglossy lets us move with no downside, setting up triple, swift or sharp requires setting up a weave, and in sharp's case an additional cast to use that mobility, without clipping for a loss. Weaving ogcd's in general for blm generally require using our mobility tools to instead weave ogcds. Not saying blm isn't mobile now, it very much is. But in a vastly different sense compared to the other 2 casters.

[CrashofZenki]

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Not having anything to contribute to the party other than your own personal DPS should come at a price. No worries of where to place utilities you dont have when and where.

[Wayfinder3]

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.



If the bulk of blm rotation was a gcd/sub gcd cast time like rdm, I would slide cast across the arena without needing those tools. Which you can do without lining up cooldowns for long extended movement. Also xeno glossylets us move with no downside, setting up triple, swift or sharp requires setting up a weave, and in sharp's case an additional cast to use that mobility, without clipping for a loss. Weaving ogcd's in general for blm generally require using our mobility tools to instead weave ogcds.

BLM has abilities with short cast times and longer recast times that with proper planning make space for this and even still, RDM is required to clip if they're casting prior to moving and swiftcast is only ogcd that can combat this where as you have at least 3

[Fernosaur]

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.

The price right now is way too high though. A Raise isn't worth 1.2k rDPS.


IMO, one of the biggest problems with how bad support jobs are right now in terms of player experience is how punishing it is to PuG on them at the moment. If you're playing BLM into PF, you can always carry so long as you do your job right. If you're playing NIN, RDM or DNC, you better hope that you get other three great DPS, cause a not insignificant chunk of your damage is so reliant on the rest of the party using your buffs properly. And even if you DO get great party members and you play perfectly, the rDPS is still lower than what you would've done on BML playing at an average level. The difference right now is insane and completely unfounded. Worse still, you get a "standard comp" party of only support jobs and in most cases it's "GG enrage wall" even before the pull has even started.



I've heard from top level RDMs themselves that they are really worried about the BLM weapon dropping on E4S, because then their groups would make them go BLM instead. RDM and SMN are in the same, or worse situation than BLM was in 4.0, and you will remember BLMs were very much not happy back then.

[Wayfinder3]

And in what world was it considered a good design choice to make the then more mobile casters with a raise ever be that close to a pure damage job? It wasn't. It was broken for smn. It was beyond broken. Smn mains don't want the game to be ballanced, they want to be the undisputed best caster for prog and speed runs again and pretend it's fair. It never was.

If we're talking Mobile casters, just by looking at their kits. BLM is the most mobile as it has the most tools that require no DPS loss. SMN would be the 2nd as even though Ruin 2 is a potency loss, it's a gain if you would use an OGCD and their are windows where your cast times are reduced to your recast time giving you instant movement. RDM would be the least as Dualcast isn't consistent, Melee combo requires the melee range position, and Reprise is never a dps gain and is a stretch used for alignment.

If mobility is the deciding factor. RDM would be the strongest caster as they need to have perfect positioning for their inconsistent burst windows. Luckily thats not the case as i don't believe their mobility is that much worse than BLM and is pretty close to SMNs. But just know that BLM IS THE MOST MOBILE CASTER IN THIS GAME no amount of dualcast can compete with movement abilities you can store and use whenever you want

[Kabooa]

If we're talking Mobile casters, just by looking at their kits. BLM is the most mobile as it has the most tools that require no DPS loss. SMN would be the 2nd as even though Ruin 2 is a potency loss, it's a gain if you would use an OGCD and their are windows where your cast times are reduced to your recast time giving you instant movement. RDM would be the least as Dualcast isn't consistent, Melee combo requires the melee range position, and Reprise is never a dps gain and is a stretch used for alignment.

If mobility is the deciding factor. RDM would be the strongest caster as they need to have perfect positioning for their inconsistent burst windows. Luckily thats not the case as i don't believe their mobility is that much worse than BLM and is pretty close to SMNs. But just know that BLM IS THE MOST MOBILE CASTER IN THIS GAME no amount of dualcast can compete with movement abilities you can store and use whenever you want

Black mage has 20 +2.5 / proc seconds of movement per 60 seconds, +however much leylines / AM can net you.

Red mage needs more math (I forgot to take into account that Mana gauge has a cap. Obviously, a Red Mage would not overcap and thus the real amount of movement per minute takes more consideration.)

From a very basic level, 8 dual casts (16 GCDs) nets approximately 24 seconds of movement and between 68/68 to 82/82 mana. Up to 2 more dualcasts can occur here, though with potential to overcap on Mana.

An unlikely case of Melee combo being usable while on the move to the next destination adds a potential 10.5

Enchanted Reprise is basically Scathe and wants to be avoided if possible.

From a basic standpoint then, the Red Mage has approximately 24 seconds of movement per minute, +10.5 if a Melee Combo can line up with needed movement. We exclude Reprise because, like Scathe, we don't like to talk about it.

The question is whether or not the movement can be utilized in a positive manner. Were there smaller bouts of micromovement, the Red Mage would probably come ahead here, but as our weak mage legs tend to require movement every 30-60s, the Red Mage loses out.

Bolded is emphasis on what the jobs both have without question. Everything else is a YMMV set up favoring Black Mage. Aether skating is pretty sweet.

Not included is the Summoner having to pay a toll every time they take a step, but no one likes them anyways.

[Wayfinder3]

Black mage has 20 +2.5 / proc seconds of movement per 60 seconds, +however much leylines / AM can net you.

Red mage has 38.5 seconds of movement per 60 seconds, plus 10.5 if melee combo lines up, plus 2.2 every Enchanted Reprise if literally nothing else can be used, plus stutter step dual casting if such can be done. For some reason corps and displacement don't have charges on them so the likelihood of being able to use these for clever movement are pretty small.

Bolded is emphasis on what the jobs both have without question. Everything else is a YMMV set up favoring Black Mage. Aether skating is pretty sweet.

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

[Kabooa]

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

I already edited.

Please note I'm not looking to dispute, I'm trying to provide some numbers for the peanut gallery.