Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Kabooa]

You do realize that in one of your e2s clears if you were to be replaced with rdm of same performance the total raid dps would be lower than 71k resulting in a wipe, and in another one it would only be 135dps above 71k?

Those people are blm, mnk and drg btw

Yeah, it's almost like that's the trade off. Safety for damage.

Given that Wayfinder is using 99th for their arguments, we use 99th for our comparisons as well. Take the bottom 4 dps at 99th in the ADPS section, add in any tanks or healers that you want, and you hit 75-76k without issue on Voidwalker

Ah, yeah, the deflection of "you're a bard so you can't know what it's like!!"

You don't. Plain and simple. But that was really more just poking ribs.

You are vastly underrating -caster- Raise. Demanding that healers save swiftcast takes away basically their only damage mobility tool to cover a mistake, that -Red Mage- can do without a thought and that Summoner, what. Swiftcast to gain 40 potency? No matter how much damage Red Mage loses for raising, a healer -hardcasting loses more-. Period, end of story. Saying a healer should just hold on to Swiftcast in a party with a Red Mage or even Summoner is probably the most telling thing you could say.

My static's caster got the i475 RDM weapon this week. He's still playing BLM, even though he's better at RDM, because the divide is so gaping that not even weapon + playing better can bridge it. His favorite job / actual main is SMN, but rip. And this is very common right now, not even because groups are bullying their casters, but because people naturally don't want to feel like they're dragging the group down.

All 3 kills I see are Red Mage and Summoner, unless you mean a different static?

Oh wait maybe you meant other bosses.

Oh, speed killing. That makes more sense.

[Illite]

People have to understand that ranged tax shouldn't be a thing, because at high level, uptime is the same: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...35/unknown.png (I let the tank/healer to show that even them have nearly perfect uptime).

Active time is not uptime... You can find this kind of active time easily from all percentiles except maybe from greys. You need another method to get estimates on uptime.

[kajv95]

You don't. Plain and simple. But that was really more just poking ribs.

You are vastly underrating -caster- Raise. Demanding that healers save swiftcast takes away basically their only damage mobility tool to cover a mistake, that -Red Mage- can do without a thought and that Summoner, what. Swiftcast to gain 40 potency? No matter how much damage Red Mage loses for raising, a healer -hardcasting loses more-. Period, end of story. Saying a healer should just hold on to Swiftcast in a party with a Red Mage or even Summoner is probably the most telling thing you could say.

I know perfectly well what it's like to be excluded for job choices. FFXIV isn't the only game I play that has an active meta, nor is this my only character. Funny how that works!

Also funny how you act as if SMN has to hold their swiftcast in the same vein as healers even though they'd also have to use it to adjust to things like movement options. If you're going to split hairs like not having people hold swiftcast, then we can split hairs of "just don't die and you won't even need the RDM/SMN".

[Cetonis]

All 3 kills I see are Red Mage and Summoner, unless you mean a different static?

Look at the speedkills, yeah. We haven't worked on optimizing the last two fights yet, and he's not going to learning curve them on BLM (reminder: it's the caster he's least confident at) while going for weekly kills. That'd just be griefing.

If he'd prog'd them on BLM, it'd be fine, but we were going blind which is the one place battle res has significant value. Now that he's done E1S and E2S on BLM, he'll be doing BLM for weeklies on those, and will be on the other two once we've dedicated that optimization time to them.


To touch on the raise bit, if you're going for speeds, obviously battle raise is useless because if someone dies you're walling it. If you're going for weekly clears, it's only useful if and only if it makes or breaks a kill, the same line of argument you're making about more deeps.

However, more deeps is always an improvement. Battle res is conditional - it relies on your group making a sufficient number of mistakes, but not so many that you can't clear, but still more than your healers were ready to swift res, but not more than your caster can swiftres.

I'd ballpark a swiftres as worth about 250 dps or so in an 8-9 minute fight, between the three healer GCDs and the added uptime of the revived we-assume-dps. So you'd need six-ish of those, five if generous, to come from a caster to make up for not being a BLM - which is not a bar that's going to be reached very often, if ever.

If BLM were ahead by 500 or so, and not 1500+, but-caster-res would be on the fringes of being a valid argument. It probably still wouldn't hold up, because now you'd have to assume your group expects to average 2+ surprise deaths on regular weekly clear runs, and a group on that level probably isn't worth worrying about too too much for balance purposes honestly. But at least things would be in the range of sensibly arguing about it.

[Tenzorro]

Yeah, it's almost like that's the trade off. Safety for damage.

Do you really think boss enrage = safety?

[Miminming]

Except that's hilariously wrong lol.
Maybe if the whole party is comprised of grays.

Sry talking about e4s here nothing under since its irrevelant anyway because on how easy it is,
a full party of gray wont be able to clear e4s even withouth any death or miss,
not to mention when you need a caster to raise mean your healer ran out of mp or death with the current SMN/RDM dps good luck clearing it

Ffff i double post on my phone forgive me

[Zerathor]

Sry talking about e4s here nothing under since its irrevelant anyway because on how easy it is, a full party of gray wont be able to clear e4s even withouth any death or miss, not to mention when you need a caster to raise mean your healer ran out of mp or death with the current SMN/RDM dos good luck clearing it

Fff i double post on my phone forgive me

Caster Raise on a healer so the other healer can use their gcd on a mechanic to have everyone not die would still save a run and not lose enough dps to wipe. It's still more valuable than you give it credit for

[Zerathor]

If BLM were ahead by 500 or so, and not 1500+, but-caster-res would be on the fringes of being a valid argument. It probably still wouldn't hold up, because now you'd have to assume your group expects to average 2+ surprise deaths on regular weekly clear runs, and a group on that level probably isn't worth worrying about too too much for balance purposes honestly. But at least things would be in the range of sensibly arguing about it.

That used to be the case. Blm was irrelevant.

[Kabooa]

I know perfectly well what it's like to be excluded for job choices. FFXIV isn't the only game I play that has an active meta, nor is this my only character. Funny how that works!

Also funny how you act as if SMN has to hold their swiftcast in the same vein as healers even though they'd also have to use it to adjust to things like movement options. If you're going to split hairs like not having people hold swiftcast, then we can split hairs of "just don't die and you won't even need the RDM/SMN".

Ruin 2 is 160 potency vs Ruin 3 at 200. Tell me again what downgraded damage instant cast option Healers get?

Do you really think boss enrage = safety?

I think the blame for enrage sits on the player, not the job.

If BLM were ahead by 500 or so, and not 1500+, but-caster-res would be on the fringes of being a valid argument. It probably still wouldn't hold up, because now you'd have to assume your group expects to average 2+ surprise deaths on regular weekly clear runs, and a group on that level probably isn't worth worrying about too too much for balance purposes honestly. But at least things would be in the range of sensibly arguing about it.

See, on this side of the fence, if it were only a 500 differential, there'd be absolutely no value in taking a black mage. Consider for a moment your own group and your optimizing set up. 500 DPS on an 80k+ group is about .6% more damage, scaling downward as group damage increases further. at 85,000, it's just under .58%.

Obviously, speed kill's a speed kill. The only thing that matters in the end is where it ranks against other speed kills / your own PBs. But that's really not what healthy game balance is around. Speed-anything by virtue of the goal ("As fast as possible") is a niche area of the game that frankly shouldn't be a factor when discussing class strength. In a speed kill setting, -something is always left out-.

Putting it simply, it means 528 second kill on Voidwalker instead takes 531. Again, speedkill, I get it. I get that in -the speed killing community- that's all that matters.

Come back out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber though?

Black Mage is trash again. Throw it away, why bring it? I sincerely doubt the party struggling to meet an enrage with no deaths is going to get more mileage by swapping their caster to Black Mage compared to, I don't know, tightening up their rotations. And that's before buffing Summoner and Red mage to that level.

Oh, and buffing the Ranged too to be comparable.

Which in turn leads to buffing the Ninja, which in turn leads to buffing the Samurai.

You get the idea.

[Wayfinder3]

That used to be the case. Blm was irrelevant.

BLM also used to be only 800 rdps higher than RDM and 400 rdps higher than SMN and it was still a meta pick in Alphascape savage, so I guess having it within 500 of SMN wouldn’t make it irrelevant as it was plenty relevant in alphascape savage optimization