Perma shelved my DRK: No role, no idenity, no lore, no worthwhile skills, no fun

[DemonicNeko]

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The biggest problems with the game is the combo ability system. It holds the devs back unable to create cool and unique mechanics. I mean look at how cool Black Mage is. How indepth their class is. Yet they can only be that way because they do not have a combo system to hold them back. Can we please get some more unique elements beside the 123 rotation.

I totally agree with you on the class being dumbed down to 123 and some cooldowns. Specially from someone who jumped ship of WoW where I was tanking as a Blood Death Knight. Who had to manage my Runes, my runic power, my dots, my bone armor, my Cool downs, On top of Trinkets. So a min of 6 things to micro manage on top of the dozen boss mechanics I had to deal with in mythic raiding. This goes the same with the monk tank from WoW where you took half the damage from the boss and put it in as a dot. You now you have to manage your energy, your chi and that stacking dot that if you let it ramp up to high. Will one shot you. To go from a class that had so much micro management to a class that is. 123 123 123 4. Yawns. Yes I know it a little more indepth then that but honestly. It not that hard to pop The blackest night to counter tank busters. Not hard to spend your blood gauge. Not hard to pop a cool down when your about to eat some extra damage. It really easy and boring. I am honestly tank while watching youtube videos.

I want more mechanics to manage. Not less. Not all tanks has to be brain dead simple level. At less WoW got tanking right. Where their where classes with the easy to pick up and easy to master. There was some more intermediate tanks and then their was some hard as hell to play tanks. For the people who want to show off their skill. I am honestly wanting HW Dark Knight back. That at less took some skill to play effectively. Not this rolling your face across the keyboard/go afk to take a piss and still be a good tank. Dark Knights need to get a rework. The need a new class mechanics all together. As right now. They are just a shitter version of Warrior.

I understand they can not make Dark Knight a Death Knight or a Monk from WoW. I am not asking that. I am how ever asking give me some micro management. Give me something to do. I like the idea of a tank that user their life force to slay their enemies. That eats the enemies either that they slay. That boards on the line between mankind and voidsent.

[Dragonkat]

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I know it's the wrong forum for it technically. But as a lvl 80 BLM main trust me, there's still a combo of sorts. Though mostly it involves triplecast and flare while cackling like a mix of Lina inverse and Megumin. Cycle to freeze, thunder, add foul, repeat. It does however still have a lot more free form since you aren't specifically tied to X must follow Y.

Other things I find idiotic in this as of late? the whole "you must kill yourself with damage to have heart of stone equal TBN tripe in other threads. Not the damn point. If you're using them as mitigation then both serve their intended purpose, perfect example of how math =/= gameplay.

The goal is survive buster without dying or make healer's job easier. NOT imho give the healer time to DPS, that's not the healer's primary purpose, sorry parsers and worshipers at the dps altar that probably led to this moronic rebalance of tanks and healers too in the first place. That and which gives more DPS, the flood hitting multiple mobs or a gravity / holy? And if the mitigation isn't needed anyway against trash pulls that are a crapshoot on breaking TBN. so if your goal is RARR MAX DPS! why bother with TBN?

It's why TBN makes DRK a one trick pony because of it's scaling and if we're honest one of the best anti buster moves tanks have, but at the same time still a total contradiction as no other mitigation in any class is directly tied to a main resource or can result in a dps loss if used incorrectly. While at times being less effective against basic pulls compared to other mitigation sources.

Regardless you are correct. It's not that DRK doesn't work. It's that DRK is boring as is, and even the blood gauge powers are trivial now. Doubly so with the makes no sense quietus nerf taking any risk vs reward factor away from large pull scenarios. You gave us more blood gauge generation SQ but gave us nothing to do with it? And our reward for the aoe game is a blood and mp aoe that doesn't do enough?

There is zero window for improvement or skill window outside pop a GCD when mp is low, use 123, pretend to be a warrior in your burst window, repeat. The dumbing down of tank roles because of this whole "we don't want party comps" attempt fell on it's face hard.

Some may disagree, but i liked being an OT! I accepted that as my "role" to go to town with old blood weapon, keep TBN as a backup for adds, and keep yourself up with old Q and AD. Now though it's zzz. And every tank being equal in dps to me isn't a good thing, it's a sign of a problem. It's only serving vanilla ice cream but this is different because you have crushed oreo on top instead of cherry syrup.

Meanwhile playing DRK feels like every problem is a nail, so let's use my TBN hammer. While playing GNB feels like weaving and playing a piano. The results may be close, but I feel like fun factor and flow really did not get taken into account, which is a huge issue.

[DemonicNeko]

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Yes I understand what you mean with the blackmage. Though I do not count that as a combo system. That more of a proc system.

I totally agree with you on how tanks are doing these stupid let healers dps thing. Healers dps while is a nice bonus is also the weakest of all the dps. Oh your healer pulled off 1.5k dps. That means your might kill the target 1.5 seconds faster. I also hate holy spam. Pulls a massive group of mobs. Pops TBN and white mage is like. "RoFL Fook you." Holy spam. Making me grit my teeth as that was 3k mana wasted. I have no problem being punish with TBN if I use it wrong. That my fault. I more have a problem if team mates cuck me.

I am with you on we are a one trick pony. You bring a dark knight into a raid for one reason only. TBN and that it. The moment the devs brought in the blood gauge and blood spiller in SB. I was like. "Beast gauge and fell cleave for dark knight." Then SHB comes around and the devs where like. "We heard warriors love their new inner release. Let give it to Dark Knights." I slammed my head on my desk going. "NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."

You are right with the there is zero window for improvement or skill window outside pop a GCD when mp is low, use 123, pretend to be a warrior in your burst window, repeat. The dumbing down of tank roles because of this whole "we don't want party comps" attempt fell on it's face hard. The worse idea FF14 has. Even as an Off tank base. You could still main tank if you play it good. I think all tanks should have a chance to be main tank. The big thing I feel with tanks classes is there should be a degree of difficultly. I will bring up WoW again. A good Death knight and Monk tank will tank better then a Paladin, Druid, Warrior. Yet are harder to pull off. Which if your a bad Death Knight, Monk you might want to be the off tank. While a good one should be the main tank.

Yes Dark Knight big problem solver is TBN. Which I love it but at the same time. Hate it. It a good but super lazy ability. Lazy on game design and lazy on functionality. Look at boss cast timer. Know you are about to take 50k damage. Hits TBN and laughs at the devs. This is basicly the same problem with tank busters. Lazy poor game design. Creating cool boss mechanics like the delay timer on E2 is good game design. Just have the boss have an ability to go 80k damage is bad game design. Because of the combo system combat for all melee, (some range classes.) With Tank Busters design. The devs have really painted them into a corner with how creative they can be.

[DemonicNeko]

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I honestly do not want to be pigeon hold into playing a GNB to have fun as a tank. I want more high risk high reward play style. I want more buttons to push. I want more things to manage. I want high ceiling hard to master classes. Yes it ok to tell bad players this is not their class. It ok to reward good players. It ok to give players room of improvement if they play the class right. I want Dark Knight to be like a Monk. Not a dps but a hard to play tank that rewards players for good skill. Punish players with bad skills.

I am still pissed off that when the devs said they could not rework Dark Knight in 4.2 saying it would take to much time and energy. As all they did was turn the dark art spam into TBN spam. With 2 new abilities. That was not a rework. That was a side grade and a down grade. The biggest changes we got was the same change all tanks got.

[WhyAmIHere]

I honestly do not want to be pigeon hold into playing a GNB to have fun as a tank. I want more high risk high reward play style. I want more buttons to push. I want more things to manage. I want high ceiling hard to master classes. Yes it ok to tell bad players this is not their class. It ok to reward good players. It ok to give players room of improvement if they play the class right. I want Dark Knight to be like a Monk. Not a dps but a hard to play tank that rewards players for good skill. Punish players with bad skills.

I am still pissed off that when the devs said they could not rework Dark Knight in 4.2 saying it would take to much time and energy. As all they did was turn the dark art spam into TBN spam. With 2 new abilities. That was not a rework. That was a side grade and a down grade. The biggest changes we got was the same change all tanks got.

i mean you have to consider, they were redesigning DRK, while designing GNB, while restructuring all the tanks. that's a lot to balance on top of, ya know, literally every other change they were doing. Sure it's no excuse for laziness from the devs, and yes the 5.0 iteration of DRK is an uninspired mess of a WAR clone. But, it functions.

[shao32]

i mean you have to consider, they were redesigning DRK, while designing GNB, while restructuring all the tanks. that's a lot to balance on top of, ya know, literally every other change they were doing. Sure it's no excuse for laziness from the devs, and yes the 5.0 iteration of DRK is an uninspired mess of a WAR clone. But, it functions.

if they feel overcome by the amount of the tank ajustments they made at the same time they desing GNB the best aprocah would be just ajust numbers of SB DRK kit since it functions too. with the new MP cap and other stuff they could control easily the amount of DA you have to press in combat with is was the main complaing about DRK desing but instead they choose rip everything and add to another 2 jobs the spaminner release mechanic, DRK and MCH, what worry me more is this specific mechanic if being pressent on so many jobs, 3 of then beings tanks with minimun diferences, i mean the devs never ask themself if ppl don't like this mechanics they are only reducing the viable options for this players?, they way they keep adding inner release to so many jobs it's a reason to say "hey stop right there" not only to recover the original DRK but to prevent they add this stupid mechanic to GNB or another job in the future.

[WhyAmIHere]

if they feel overcome by the amount of the tank ajustments they made at the same time they desing GNB the best aprocah would be just ajust numbers of SB DRK kit since it functions too. with the new MP cap and other stuff they could control easily the amount of DA you have to press in combat with is was the main complaing about DRK desing but instead they choose rip everything and add to another 2 jobs the spaminner release mechanic, DRK and MCH, what worry me more is this specific mechanic if being pressent on so many jobs, 3 of then beings tanks with minimun diferences, i mean the devs never ask themself if ppl don't like this mechanics they are only reducing the viable options for this players?, they way they keep adding inner release to so many jobs it's a reason to say "hey stop right there" not only to recover the original DRK but to prevent they add this stupid mechanic to GNB or another job in the future.

like, I get that. But i know i've said it before and as have others, the playerbase by large was just not touching DRK as much as they were WAR/PLD in 4.x. SE saw that and said "we have to do something!" What they came up with is what we have now. There's plenty more of what could have been done but remember that most of the complaints were "we press DA too much," so SE could either, while all the team is working on making sure GNB is functional and balanced, and introducing DNC, and overhauling how tanks in general function, pour time into making DA work, or just remove it.

Expediency led to them removing dark arts and SE backed themselves into a corner with DRK's design.

[shao32]

like, I get that. But i know i've said it before and as have others, the playerbase by large was just not touching DRK as much as they were WAR/PLD in 4.x. SE saw that and said "we have to do something!" What they came up with is what we have now. There's plenty more of what could have been done but remember that most of the complaints were "we press DA too much," so SE could either, while all the team is working on making sure GNB is functional and balanced, and introducing DNC, and overhauling how tanks in general function, pour time into making DA work, or just remove it.

Expediency led to them removing dark arts and SE backed themselves into a corner with DRK's design.

but at the same time we have to keep something important in mind, why ppl din't play SB DRK? for gameplay or was bcs was heavely underpowered compared to his counterparts (but viable to clear anything) until pretty late in the expansion?, i recognice DRK have certain mechanics like DA spam that make some ppl move to another job but if the problem was primary the spam and the lack of other MP expenders removing it complety is not the solution, DRK SB low pick rate was mostly bcs balance problems rather that gameplay isues that could be adressed this expansion by tunning down certain stuff instead of making the job a WAR clone, and even after the buffs in 4.3 literally 2 raid tiers later the job was slightly behind and lacks any raid mitigation.

the current drama and backstab from old DRK mains is a well deserved situation that SE made for homogenize tank gameplays, point to not the same to homogenize tank capabilitys, i mean to be clear why i quote you is the excuse of "is function" it's doesn't work for me at least bcs you can make anything fuction actually to 1 buttom job to a 50 buttom job with any mechanic you can imagine simple or complex, old DRK versions perfectly works, and both of them where fun and balanced more or less bcs is a question of numbers and rates rather that mechanics so repurpose all the job without have the decency to keep it unique was the biggest insult SE give me.

[DemonicNeko]

i mean you have to consider, they were redesigning DRK, while designing GNB, while restructuring all the tanks. that's a lot to balance on top of, ya know, literally every other change they were doing. Sure it's no excuse for laziness from the devs, and yes the 5.0 iteration of DRK is an uninspired mess of a WAR clone. But, it functions.

I have to disagree with you on that. Look at MCH and DNC. They some how did not make MCH a bard clone or half assed it redesign because they where working on DNC. Why did DRK get the short end of the stick on a expansion they where the poster child for. While MCH who was not promised a rework. Some how got a massive super rework that is not only functions but fun to play.

[WhyAmIHere]

I have to disagree with you on that. Look at MCH and DNC. They some how did not make MCH a bard clone or half assed it redesign because they where working on DNC. Why did DRK get the short end of the stick on a expansion they where the poster child for. While MCH who was not promised a rework. Some how got a massive super rework that is not only functions but fun to play.

a few reasons.
1) MCH had an identity. It was supposed to be the "finely tuned engine, high DPS of it's bracket" for lack of a better term. in terms of the sliding scale of utility<->damage, BRD was utility and MCH damage in concept. In execution however, MCH was too demanding on ping. SE had an easier time with MCH's redesign... which from what I've heard they've done the opposite and somehow made it more ping dependent for top damage. They had, as with DRK, received PLENTY of feedback on what MCH was missing and what felt bad about it, and they fixed those things. All I hear from people that I know who have any skill with it is "new MCH is so much fun."
DRK's identity was always in this weird state of limbo. Not as much damage as WAR, nor as muh utility as PLD, so... middle child syndrome? What's DRK offer that makes it stand out? (Aesthetics are not a factor for me here as that's subjective and not evidential.)
MCH did have an identity in it's drones and wildfire. Things that were either removed or severely adjusted based on player feedback. DRK's only similarity is the removal of Dark Arts spam, the one common thread of complaint against DRK. The rest of it's kit being pruned is a result of this one decision, and an evaluation within SE (entirely in my opinion that I've said time and again) that people, post 4.2, were jumping off of DRK and most tank comps played were PLD/WAR, and SE in it's logic sought to make DRK more akin to WAR to make the former DRK players who dropped it for WAR to try and go back to it. "Well, players seem to like WAR now, and not DRK anymore... what if we made DRK more like what they enjoy in WAR? But we can't make it a direct clone soooooo... DelIRium! Blood Weapon is a 10s duration of infuriate! Damage buff upkeep! But we can't make any changes to Living Dead because [i]Hallowed Ground is too powerful so we based the other invulns off of that, and oh yeah ClAsS fAnTaSy!!"
(Parry/Accuracy were removed because they were hindrances to gameplay. Elemental resistances were taken away because they were outmoded and irrelevant. Yet Living Dead still exists as it does. Amazing.)

2) On a numerical level you're also forgetting that, MCH only had to compete with BRD, and it was easy for SE to slot DNC into the phys.ranged role, as they just made it the utility end of the role, and now BRD players are the middle child of their role. How many BRD complaints have their been about how now BRD doesn't feel as supportive as it used to be? BRD players are seeing what DRK has had to deal with for all of 4.0: being in the middle of their role, good enough at what they do, but what do you offer that your peers do not? Want damage? BRD can pack a punch sure (as could DRK), but MCH can pack an even higher punch. Want to bring some raid utility? BRD can do that (as could DRK), but not as good as DNC (Battle Voice -v- Technical/Standard steps and Devilment versus DRK -v- PLD on utility arguments). Does BRD function as a job and can be played in any content? Yes, just like every other class. Just like DRK could.

3) Purely my opinion. SE doesn't know what to do with DRK. "Hey, you loved HW DRK? Here's GNB! Our next attempt at making a more balanced version of that! Oh, you liked 4.0 DRK? Well... tough luck! Here's GNB! Look, continuation is just a better realized attempt at what 4.0 Dark Arts could have been!"