Perma shelved my DRK: No role, no idenity, no lore, no worthwhile skills, no fun

[DemonicNeko]

snip

I honestly do not want to be pigeon hold into playing a GNB to have fun as a tank. I want more high risk high reward play style. I want more buttons to push. I want more things to manage. I want high ceiling hard to master classes. Yes it ok to tell bad players this is not their class. It ok to reward good players. It ok to give players room of improvement if they play the class right. I want Dark Knight to be like a Monk. Not a dps but a hard to play tank that rewards players for good skill. Punish players with bad skills.

I am still pissed off that when the devs said they could not rework Dark Knight in 4.2 saying it would take to much time and energy. As all they did was turn the dark art spam into TBN spam. With 2 new abilities. That was not a rework. That was a side grade and a down grade. The biggest changes we got was the same change all tanks got.

[WhyAmIHere]

I honestly do not want to be pigeon hold into playing a GNB to have fun as a tank. I want more high risk high reward play style. I want more buttons to push. I want more things to manage. I want high ceiling hard to master classes. Yes it ok to tell bad players this is not their class. It ok to reward good players. It ok to give players room of improvement if they play the class right. I want Dark Knight to be like a Monk. Not a dps but a hard to play tank that rewards players for good skill. Punish players with bad skills.

I am still pissed off that when the devs said they could not rework Dark Knight in 4.2 saying it would take to much time and energy. As all they did was turn the dark art spam into TBN spam. With 2 new abilities. That was not a rework. That was a side grade and a down grade. The biggest changes we got was the same change all tanks got.

i mean you have to consider, they were redesigning DRK, while designing GNB, while restructuring all the tanks. that's a lot to balance on top of, ya know, literally every other change they were doing. Sure it's no excuse for laziness from the devs, and yes the 5.0 iteration of DRK is an uninspired mess of a WAR clone. But, it functions.

[shao32]

i mean you have to consider, they were redesigning DRK, while designing GNB, while restructuring all the tanks. that's a lot to balance on top of, ya know, literally every other change they were doing. Sure it's no excuse for laziness from the devs, and yes the 5.0 iteration of DRK is an uninspired mess of a WAR clone. But, it functions.

if they feel overcome by the amount of the tank ajustments they made at the same time they desing GNB the best aprocah would be just ajust numbers of SB DRK kit since it functions too. with the new MP cap and other stuff they could control easily the amount of DA you have to press in combat with is was the main complaing about DRK desing but instead they choose rip everything and add to another 2 jobs the spaminner release mechanic, DRK and MCH, what worry me more is this specific mechanic if being pressent on so many jobs, 3 of then beings tanks with minimun diferences, i mean the devs never ask themself if ppl don't like this mechanics they are only reducing the viable options for this players?, they way they keep adding inner release to so many jobs it's a reason to say "hey stop right there" not only to recover the original DRK but to prevent they add this stupid mechanic to GNB or another job in the future.

[WhyAmIHere]

if they feel overcome by the amount of the tank ajustments they made at the same time they desing GNB the best aprocah would be just ajust numbers of SB DRK kit since it functions too. with the new MP cap and other stuff they could control easily the amount of DA you have to press in combat with is was the main complaing about DRK desing but instead they choose rip everything and add to another 2 jobs the spaminner release mechanic, DRK and MCH, what worry me more is this specific mechanic if being pressent on so many jobs, 3 of then beings tanks with minimun diferences, i mean the devs never ask themself if ppl don't like this mechanics they are only reducing the viable options for this players?, they way they keep adding inner release to so many jobs it's a reason to say "hey stop right there" not only to recover the original DRK but to prevent they add this stupid mechanic to GNB or another job in the future.

like, I get that. But i know i've said it before and as have others, the playerbase by large was just not touching DRK as much as they were WAR/PLD in 4.x. SE saw that and said "we have to do something!" What they came up with is what we have now. There's plenty more of what could have been done but remember that most of the complaints were "we press DA too much," so SE could either, while all the team is working on making sure GNB is functional and balanced, and introducing DNC, and overhauling how tanks in general function, pour time into making DA work, or just remove it.

Expediency led to them removing dark arts and SE backed themselves into a corner with DRK's design.

[shao32]

like, I get that. But i know i've said it before and as have others, the playerbase by large was just not touching DRK as much as they were WAR/PLD in 4.x. SE saw that and said "we have to do something!" What they came up with is what we have now. There's plenty more of what could have been done but remember that most of the complaints were "we press DA too much," so SE could either, while all the team is working on making sure GNB is functional and balanced, and introducing DNC, and overhauling how tanks in general function, pour time into making DA work, or just remove it.

Expediency led to them removing dark arts and SE backed themselves into a corner with DRK's design.

but at the same time we have to keep something important in mind, why ppl din't play SB DRK? for gameplay or was bcs was heavely underpowered compared to his counterparts (but viable to clear anything) until pretty late in the expansion?, i recognice DRK have certain mechanics like DA spam that make some ppl move to another job but if the problem was primary the spam and the lack of other MP expenders removing it complety is not the solution, DRK SB low pick rate was mostly bcs balance problems rather that gameplay isues that could be adressed this expansion by tunning down certain stuff instead of making the job a WAR clone, and even after the buffs in 4.3 literally 2 raid tiers later the job was slightly behind and lacks any raid mitigation.

the current drama and backstab from old DRK mains is a well deserved situation that SE made for homogenize tank gameplays, point to not the same to homogenize tank capabilitys, i mean to be clear why i quote you is the excuse of "is function" it's doesn't work for me at least bcs you can make anything fuction actually to 1 buttom job to a 50 buttom job with any mechanic you can imagine simple or complex, old DRK versions perfectly works, and both of them where fun and balanced more or less bcs is a question of numbers and rates rather that mechanics so repurpose all the job without have the decency to keep it unique was the biggest insult SE give me.

[DemonicNeko]

i mean you have to consider, they were redesigning DRK, while designing GNB, while restructuring all the tanks. that's a lot to balance on top of, ya know, literally every other change they were doing. Sure it's no excuse for laziness from the devs, and yes the 5.0 iteration of DRK is an uninspired mess of a WAR clone. But, it functions.

I have to disagree with you on that. Look at MCH and DNC. They some how did not make MCH a bard clone or half assed it redesign because they where working on DNC. Why did DRK get the short end of the stick on a expansion they where the poster child for. While MCH who was not promised a rework. Some how got a massive super rework that is not only functions but fun to play.

[WhyAmIHere]

I have to disagree with you on that. Look at MCH and DNC. They some how did not make MCH a bard clone or half assed it redesign because they where working on DNC. Why did DRK get the short end of the stick on a expansion they where the poster child for. While MCH who was not promised a rework. Some how got a massive super rework that is not only functions but fun to play.

a few reasons.
1) MCH had an identity. It was supposed to be the "finely tuned engine, high DPS of it's bracket" for lack of a better term. in terms of the sliding scale of utility<->damage, BRD was utility and MCH damage in concept. In execution however, MCH was too demanding on ping. SE had an easier time with MCH's redesign... which from what I've heard they've done the opposite and somehow made it more ping dependent for top damage. They had, as with DRK, received PLENTY of feedback on what MCH was missing and what felt bad about it, and they fixed those things. All I hear from people that I know who have any skill with it is "new MCH is so much fun."
DRK's identity was always in this weird state of limbo. Not as much damage as WAR, nor as muh utility as PLD, so... middle child syndrome? What's DRK offer that makes it stand out? (Aesthetics are not a factor for me here as that's subjective and not evidential.)
MCH did have an identity in it's drones and wildfire. Things that were either removed or severely adjusted based on player feedback. DRK's only similarity is the removal of Dark Arts spam, the one common thread of complaint against DRK. The rest of it's kit being pruned is a result of this one decision, and an evaluation within SE (entirely in my opinion that I've said time and again) that people, post 4.2, were jumping off of DRK and most tank comps played were PLD/WAR, and SE in it's logic sought to make DRK more akin to WAR to make the former DRK players who dropped it for WAR to try and go back to it. "Well, players seem to like WAR now, and not DRK anymore... what if we made DRK more like what they enjoy in WAR? But we can't make it a direct clone soooooo... DelIRium! Blood Weapon is a 10s duration of infuriate! Damage buff upkeep! But we can't make any changes to Living Dead because [i]Hallowed Ground is too powerful so we based the other invulns off of that, and oh yeah ClAsS fAnTaSy!!"
(Parry/Accuracy were removed because they were hindrances to gameplay. Elemental resistances were taken away because they were outmoded and irrelevant. Yet Living Dead still exists as it does. Amazing.)

2) On a numerical level you're also forgetting that, MCH only had to compete with BRD, and it was easy for SE to slot DNC into the phys.ranged role, as they just made it the utility end of the role, and now BRD players are the middle child of their role. How many BRD complaints have their been about how now BRD doesn't feel as supportive as it used to be? BRD players are seeing what DRK has had to deal with for all of 4.0: being in the middle of their role, good enough at what they do, but what do you offer that your peers do not? Want damage? BRD can pack a punch sure (as could DRK), but MCH can pack an even higher punch. Want to bring some raid utility? BRD can do that (as could DRK), but not as good as DNC (Battle Voice -v- Technical/Standard steps and Devilment versus DRK -v- PLD on utility arguments). Does BRD function as a job and can be played in any content? Yes, just like every other class. Just like DRK could.

3) Purely my opinion. SE doesn't know what to do with DRK. "Hey, you loved HW DRK? Here's GNB! Our next attempt at making a more balanced version of that! Oh, you liked 4.0 DRK? Well... tough luck! Here's GNB! Look, continuation is just a better realized attempt at what 4.0 Dark Arts could have been!"