Proposed Samurai Adjustments/Fixes

[Chimiko]

Not trying to say anything because it might just be because yoshi really thinks because blm isn't moblie that they should have CRAZY high dps compared to everybody else however....that might have been true in HW but that's totally utter BS now.
They're more mobile than a rdm now with the tools they have.

This is so true, I don't know why people go on about BLM being super stationary. They used to be a turret mage. They arent anymore. They have plenty of tools to move around with.
SAM should be on-par with that. There is no reason that BLM should be top DPS over SAM anymore. Infact, melee are generally punished more by mechanics than ranged are. As soon as we move away from the boss our dps goes down to 0. Most range classes can whoop out some form of damage on the move or have some form of tools to deal with movment even if its not optimal. Most melee job's cant do that.

[Shurrikhan]

This is so true, I don't know why people go on about BLM being super stationary. They used to be a turret mage. They arent anymore. They have plenty of tools to move around with.
SAM should be on-par with that. There is no reason that BLM should be top DPS over SAM anymore. Infact, melee are generally punished more by mechanics than ranged are. As soon as we move away from the boss our dps goes down to 0. Most range classes can whoop out some form of damage on the move or have some form of tools to deal with movment even if its not optimal. Most melee job's cant do that.

I remember a SAM from voice chat asking "Couldn't they have just my MP by Enpi/Flex-skill meter?" Hit me right in the heart. And slightly the brain.

[Lersayil]

And I don't know, not sure why people keep comparing it to dark when dark arts is a GCD.
Shinten is oGCD so it doesn't really stop your flow. I feel people are just too lazy to press more buttons and just want to do the bare minimum if I'm going to be honest and honestly its probably a fact seeing how samurai is meme'd on because the amount of bad players.

Shinten makes samurai busy and active and if people don't like pressing buttons to put out more dps, maybe samurai isn't for them and should play DRG which is not as active as samurai,nin and mnk.

You might be thinking of a different skill than Dark Arts? I mean the oGCD removed since ShB, the one that added (most of the times outside tank stance) a flat damage bonus to your next GCD. When people compare Shinten to Dark Arts they usually mean the Blood Weapon burst window, where you weaved in Dark Arts between almost every GCD for... what? 6-8 GCDs?

It was not interactive, active or anything. It was just an extra button press that required no thought put into it. Currently if we hoard Kenki + line up Ikkishoten for a burst window, we can get uuh... 4? 5? (quick napkin math, correct me if i'm wrong) Shintens in a row. Its a tolerable amount. With Hagakure in its old state + Ikkishoten that would add an additional 2-3?

For reference though, I dont mind high APM. I play MCH and SMN on and off. I just dont like when the high apms source is one button, on one resource, that doesn't really interact with anything else in the kit.

[xxvaynxx]

You might be thinking of a different skill than Dark Arts? I mean the oGCD removed since ShB, the one that added (most of the times outside tank stance) a flat damage bonus to your next GCD. When people compare Shinten to Dark Arts they usually mean the Blood Weapon burst window, where you weaved in Dark Arts between almost every GCD for... what? 6-8 GCDs?

It was not interactive, active or anything. It was just an extra button press that required no thought put into it. Currently if we hoard Kenki + line up Ikkishoten for a burst window, we can get uuh... 4? 5? (quick napkin math, correct me if i'm wrong) Shintens in a row. Its a tolerable amount. With Hagakure in its old state + Ikkishoten that would add an additional 2-3?

For reference though, I dont mind high APM. I play MCH and SMN on and off. I just dont like when the high apms source is one button, on one resource, that doesn't really interact with anything else in the kit.

Well first, you wouldn't do ikkishoten and old haga together because you'll over fill unless they nerf ikkishoten, so that's a pretty silly point. Nobody in their right mind would do that....60+50.
Unless I'm reading it wrong.

Shinten does make samurai active what?? you have to press it every gcd/or other gcd while making sure you always enough kenki for kaiten for midare, bana and your big burst kenki attack. So there is your interactive as well. It affects your kenki gauge, hagakure also add some interactive since that's what it seems you want.

If you don't mind high APM jobs why does it feel like you're fighting to NOT have hagakure back.

Its and extra button but so what? that extra button makes the job busy and engaging. Honestly, if you rather just flow through your rotaton without pressing anything else, not to be rude but play dragoon.

[Quor]

What I miss about Haga is the longer term strategic play that it brought to SAM as a class. You wanted to keep it on cooldown, but not always immediately. Maybe it was better to use it right away so it was ready again ASAP, but maybe you delayed it for a few GCD's to get another 20-40 kenki from it. Which was best depended on the situation, and you could selectively use it to enable mechanics to be dealt with easier (such as being forced onto a flank to dodge aoe and eating Ka so that you just run through your Kasha combo again).

What I don't miss about Haga is that - outside of raid bursts windows - you wanted to more or less keep it on cooldown. The gain almost always outweighed what you got from using Sen on anything but a Banana refresh, and even inside burst windows it wasn't always a clear cut win for Midare; sometimes you needed to be mobile, so Haga would win out since you could spam more Shinten's.
I like that Haga is back now, and it still has limited in-combat usage depending on your circumstances, but I also like not using Shinten so much. It's not a bad skill per se, it's just not very interesting. Push button, receive damage. Keep your kenki gauge above a certain level so you can use Kaiten as needed or Guren/Senei when they start to come off CD, and even that isn't a challenge now with Ikishoten lining up perfectly with Guren/Senei. So while Haga allowed an interesting style of play that I came to love with SAM, it also paradoxically imposed it's own dogma onto the class. You wanted it on CD as much as possible, and waiting more than 2-3 GCD's to put it on CD was pushing into lost dps territory.

There are other ways to increase SAM dps. I'm fine with Haga as it is now. It still has niche in-combat use, it's just not required to be used like it used to be. It's an option, not a requirement, and that's a good thing.

Specifically on the topic of boosting SAM dps, I like the idea of Kaeshi: Banana double up with normal Banana on an enemy, but you'd have to drop the CD of Kaeshi probably to 30s or else all you're going to use it on is Banana. SAM needs more overall options not less, and no, more Shinten spam is not an option it needs. I'd like to see more conditional stuff beyond the minor niche stuff current Haga brings. To be honest, I think the Kaeshi's are an untapped option. I'd love to see a 30s CD on Tsubame-Gaeshi with each different Kaeshi granting SAM a personal buff of some sort. Kaeshi: Goken could add a 15s buff that increases the potency of all aoe skills by 10%. Kaeshi: Higanbana could cause the SAM to deal an additional X amount of potency for every AA and weaponskill used on the target for the duration, maybe something small like 10 or 15. Kaeshi: Setsugekka could grant three charges that increase the damage of the next kenki spenders by 25%. These are all obviously just suggestions and ideas, but I'm sure everyone gets the gist; let's add something personal and defining to what's arguably the best SAM skill added in this xpac. Something unique that has a noticeable effect but also introduces a measure of decision making that goes beyond "use this on cooldown."

[Lersayil]

Well first, you wouldn't do ikkishoten and old haga together because you'll over fill unless they nerf ikkishoten, so that's a pretty silly point. Nobody in their right mind would do that....60+50.
Unless I'm reading it wrong.

Shinten does make samurai active what?? you have to press it every gcd/or other gcd while making sure you always enough kenki for kaiten for midare, bana and your big burst kenki attack. So there is your interactive as well. It affects your kenki gauge, hagakure also add some interactive since that's what it seems you want.

If you don't mind high APM jobs why does it feel like you're fighting to NOT have hagakure back.

Its and extra button but so what? that extra button makes the job busy and engaging. Honestly, if you rather just flow through your rotaton without pressing anything else, not to be rude but play dragoon.

You could stack Ikkishoten and Hagakure AFTER burning enough Kenki so it wouldn't overcap, thus creating a theoretical burst window of 60+50+ whatever Kenki you've hoarded before. Thats somwhere between 4-7 Shintens back to back, minus a Kaiten if an Iaijitsu needs it.

And no, one button does not an interesting rotation maketh. Just ask most of the SB DRK's how they liked spamming Dark Arts.

Dont get me wrong, I liked Hagakure mixing up the Sen and Kenki generation, but with the current iteration of Ikkishoten and Tsubame Gaeshi, I don't think that giving us back the old Hagakure (and thus more Shintens) is a good solution.

If anything, I think we need more Kenki spenders (or lower cooldown on Senei) so its not as simple as: Save enough for Senei / Kaiten occasionally -> dump everything else into Shinten (occasionally Seigan if you're feeling spicy).

That or something that shakes up the GCD flow, but preferably without giving us more Shintens.

EDIT: also drop the snark. SAM wasnt a high APM job last expansion, and its roughly the same now. The only thing we've lost is the Hagakure interraction with Sen. You are the one advocating to change the job for higher APM. I just want some of the variation back in my rotation as its currently a bit too one note for my taste.

[Shurrikhan]

It [Hagakure] still has niche in-combat use.

It doesn't outside of very poor play, though. Not at over a 400 potency loss.

EDIT: also drop the snark. SAM wasnt a high APM job last expansion, and its roughly the same now.

It was if you played at the 2.9k+ SkS Haga breakpoint... Guess what else isn't an option from which to gain playflow depth anymore?

[xxvaynxx]

You could stack Ikkishoten and Hagakure AFTER burning enough Kenki so it wouldn\\\\'t overcap

Well of course if you do Ikki after burning a bit of kenki. That wasn't what I was talking about but I'll ignore that.

Shinten is no where near as bad as dark arts for the sole fact samurai GCD is naturally faster not making it as much as a pain, why you think no real samurai player complained about it?
Because it feels good to use, it\\\\'s quick and it's great seeing those big numbers and keeps up your DPS. If you think otherwise well I don't know what to tell you.

And the part about samurai not being high apm, that just tells me you either never played samurai seriously or just occasionally played it.
Back in sigma samurai was very much a high apm job. Because bis was sks but you know the beauty of samurai thanks to hagakura? Samurai could flex from being a ultra fast job to a bursty slow crt samurai.

Haga wasn't just about gaining your kenki and mixing up your sen?

I don't get that. At what point would you want to use it other than at 3 sen? The times you use it at 2 sen was far and few between in the middle of a fight . Only few times to use it at two sen was your opener and reopener and a long phase change and I guess some air situations...either way, it added flexibility and made the job smooth so everything flow if you played it right. So I'm not advocating anything.I played this job all through SB and seriously at that, not just playing it in a dgn or ex Primals.

5.x samurai lost all that beautiful design now it's just a generic melee. Pretty much a dragoon.

Sorry for the snark, I just feel any samurai that doesn't like haga or doesn't want it back wasn't a full time samurai or a very good one or understand why samurai was so beautifully designed. ((Balance wise it was crap, just like now lol))

[xxvaynxx]

What I miss about Haga is the longer term strategic play that it brought to SAM as a class. You wanted to keep it on cooldown, but not always immediately. Maybe it was better to use it right away so it was ready again ASAP, but maybe you delayed it for a few GCD's to get another 20-40 kenki from it. Which was best depended on the situation, and you could selectively use it to enable mechanics to be dealt with easier (such as being forced onto a flank to dodge aoe and eating Ka so that you just run through your Kasha combo again).

What I don't miss about Haga is that - outside of raid bursts windows - you wanted to more or less keep it on cooldown. The gain almost always outweighed what you got from using Sen on anything but a Banana refresh, and even inside burst windows it wasn't always a clear cut win for Midare; sometimes you needed to be mobile, so Haga would win out since you could spam more Shinten's.
I like that Haga is back now, and it still has limited in-combat usage depending on your circumstances, but I also like not using Shinten so much. It's not a bad skill per se, it's just not very interesting. Push button, receive damage. Keep your kenki gauge above a certain level so you can use Kaiten as needed or Guren/Senei when they start to come off CD, and even that isn't a challenge now with Ikishoten lining up perfectly with Guren/Senei. So while Haga allowed an interesting style of play that I came to love with SAM, it also paradoxically imposed it's own dogma onto the class. You wanted it on CD as much as possible, and waiting more than 2-3 GCD's to put it on CD was pushing into lost dps territory.

There are other ways to increase SAM dps. I'm fine with Haga as it is now. It still has niche in-combat use, it's just not required to be used like it used to be. It's an option, not a requirement, and that's a good thing

Mmm you're looking at haga a bit too deeply. Allow me to correct a few things.
Firstly, haga is mainly only used for 3 or 2 depending on your situation but it's very situational for 2 sen. You never want to eat it just for one sen. That's a pure DPS lost, you might as we just overwrite your sen.

Another thing is midare was actually better to use over haga shinten spam under Trick attack due to you most likely not being able to dump it all under the trick window.

You really don't want to delay your haga, you should just be ready for it. Have your kenki ready to not overfill.
Only time you delay it is if youre waiting to sync it with meikyo or you used midare to hit trick attack.
Other than that you just use it on cooldown really.
Unless boss about to die from a few hits lol.

[Tatsemaru]

As Sam player, i enjoyed the Shinten cycle bewteen gcd.
As Drk player, i enjoyed the dark arts cycle between gcd.

my personal opinion (it dont matter if it triggers people saying this) if pressing 1 button between gcd is too much to handle, it's no wonder why shb jobs are super dumb to play with no flex or flow and doesn't reward player skill (looking at Ninjas).
the "dark arts" (alltho nothing compared to the Shinten we were talking about) has 1 thing in common with Shinten, and that is, if your not paying attention and over spent, you f'ed yourself over. take it like a champ and learn from it.

It's understandable that some people prefer NOT spaming shinten due to latency, cronic tunnle vision, amnesia - forgeting when to stop spending kenki for that kaiten that allways seams to come 3 gcd's too early..am i right? i know every sam had accidentally overspent kenki once or twice? dont even deny...

The point problem with Sam at its core right now, is
1) the lvl 80 skill being a joke. buffing their potency on the first 4 ticks like any sam is going to be "hold on i'll go meditate for 45 seconds, but when im back..your gonna feel the wrath of this midare shoha combo"
2) the 55 seconds meikyo vs the 60 second kaeshi
3) the obvious dps compared to drg/mnks with raid utility and it's magical counterpart, the blm
4) the clunky rotation that forces you to either a) over use a yukikaze b) become a dragoon litterally c) loose 400 potency with the new "Hagakure"
5) Why did they even fix what wasn't broke with Hagakure? (half the sam that had the tunnle vision and amnesia issues will argue no.5 but it's their opinion)

My only question to the Dev team is, do they even PLAY the job?