How about we change the "dps check" a little?

[Goji1639]

Tell me what games allow you to fail at something then continue to the next part of the game?

Tell me what games require near mechanical perfection before allowing you to continue. Now tell me which games have easy modes to allow casual players to progress.

Needing to lock casual players out of content just so you can feel special is just insecurity. I personally don't see anything wrong with just giving better players better rewards.

you pay to access the game, it doesnt mean you unlock all contents the game gives you.
imagine demanding to get all bosses's rewards in dark souls just because you're incompetent to beat them.

In Dark Souls you can summon players to beat the boss for you, or just outlevel bosses to the point where their mechanics don't matter.

[Nora_of_Mira]

In Dark Souls you can summon players to beat the boss for you, or just outlevel bosses to the point where their mechanics don't matter.

and in FFxiv, you can buy your savage clears.

[Goji1639]

and in FFxiv, you can buy your savage clears.

No idea how realistic this actually is, but if it's an accessible option for casual player then fair enough.

This was a joke right? This game in no way requires mechanical perfection and anything outside savage (and MAYBE Ex trials) is easy mode to allow casuals to progress. I am not locking anyone out of anything. I am casual myself. I have never touched Savage or an EX trial that was synced. The rest of the game is for us.... stop wanting someone else's slice of cake and just eat yours.

So, what exactly is being taken away from hardcores if casual players are still able to clear the content if they don't beat the enrage timer? If you get better rewards for actually beating the timer then what's the problem? Is it that they still feel special but not quite special enough, so the only way is to lock other people out?

Sorry, but the reasons you all have as to why casual players shouldn't be allowed to clear this content are just petty.

[CorbinDallas]

No idea how realistic this actually is, but if it's an accessible option for casual player then fair enough.


So, what exactly is being taken away from hardcores if casual players are still able to clear the content if they don't beat the enrage timer? If you get better rewards for actually beating the timer then what's the problem? Is it that they still feel special but not quite special enough, so the only way is to lock other people out?

Sorry, but the reasons you all have as to why casual players shouldn't be allowed to clear this content are just petty.

OK, you can clear the 4th Savage fights, but you only get a page. You're not allowed the mounts, coffers, or actual gear drops. How about that?

Such a ridiculous thing to even consider. You either do the content properly and get rewarded, or just don't do it at all. I'm firmly in the camp of no participation trophies.

[Aramina]

Tell me what games require near mechanical perfection before allowing you to continue. Now tell me which games have easy modes to allow casual players to progress.

Needing to lock casual players out of content just so you can feel special is just insecurity. I personally don't see anything wrong with just giving better players better rewards.


In Dark Souls you can summon players to beat the boss for you, or just outlevel bosses to the point where their mechanics don't matter.

This was a joke right? This game in no way requires mechanical perfection and anything outside savage (and MAYBE Ex trials) is easy mode to allow casuals to progress. I am not locking anyone out of anything. I am casual myself. I have never touched Savage or an EX trial that was synced. The rest of the game is for us.... stop wanting someone else's slice of cake and just eat yours.

[HumanNinjaToo]

Tell me what games require near mechanical perfection before allowing you to continue.

Dark Souls comes to mind... You can't summon in other players if you don't play online. Over leveling doesn't work on all the bosses.

Now tell me which games have easy modes to allow casual players to progress.

Almost every new game these days has some iteration of story mode, normal mode, and hard mode.

However, while I don't agree with participation rewards, I do agree that locking people out of content based on their skill is not cool. But again, I don't think you should get a reward for barely scraping by. Rewards should be given when you've done something well, when you've accomplished an exceptional feat.

[Goji1639]

Dark Souls comes to mind... You can't summon in other players if you don't play online. Over leveling doesn't work on all the bosses.



Almost every new game these days has some iteration of story mode, normal mode, and hard mode.

However, while I don't agree with participation rewards, I do agree that locking people out of content based on their skill is not cool. But again, I don't think you should get a reward for barely scraping by. Rewards should be given when you've done something well, when you've accomplished an exceptional feat.

Yes, if you play offline there are a handful of bosses that might be difficult even if you seriously over-level. Even then the games have some very effective cheese builds.

Also, while I do think reward quality should be based on performance, I think the existence of "you won't be good enough; don't even bother" content for casual players is a little much, for a game they're paying the same amount as everyone else is for. Especially when the only reason to freeze them out is just to protect the ego's of some insecure children who invest way too much of their self-worth into this kind of thing.

[Paladinleeds]

Yes, if you play offline there are a handful of bosses that might be difficult even if you seriously over-level. Even then the games have some very effective cheese builds.

Also, while I do think reward quality should be based on performance, I think the existence of "you won't be good enough; don't even bother" content for casual players is a little much, for a game they're paying the same amount as everyone else is for. Especially when the only reason to freeze them out is just to protect the ego's of some insecure children who invest way too much of their self-worth into this kind of thing.

Savage is deliberately designed to be challenging though. For the story, you're already getting the normal mode. Plus, for Savage at least, you can always go back and just unsync it, to remove some of the pressure, in the following expansion. Ultimate was designed for the 1% though. Are we going to suggest adding that to Ultimate too, which was designed to be brutally difficult? Savage is meant to be for those that want a challenge. Participation rewards go against that if you ask me.

[Goji1639]

Savage is deliberately designed to be challenging though. For the story, you're already getting the normal mode. Plus, for Savage at least, you can always go back and just unsync it, to remove some of the pressure, in the following expansion. Ultimate was designed for the 1% though. Are we going to suggest adding that to Ultimate too, which was designed to be brutally difficult? Savage is meant to be for those that want a challenge. Participation rewards go against that if you ask me.

I get that it's for the challenge, and that's why things like enrage timers exist; for people who want to be challenged. Casuals clearing doesn't take anything away from the people who want to push themselves harder, and I agree those people should be more heavily rewarded. This still doesn't explain what using enrage timers to completely freeze casual players out of this content accomplishes.

I repeat, you pay to access the game, that's it
If the content is hard for you, git gud or fuck off, go play the rest 95% of the game.

lol, stuff like this doesn't do much to hurt my assumption that you're all just being petty.

[Qeilos]

Yes, if you play offline there are a handful of bosses that might be difficult even if you seriously over-level. Even then the games have some very effective cheese builds.

Also, while I do think reward quality should be based on performance, I think the existence of "you won't be good enough; don't even bother" content for casual players is a little much, for a game they're paying the same amount as everyone else is for. Especially when the only reason to freeze them out is just to protect the ego's of some insecure children who invest way too much of their self-worth into this kind of thing.

But basically every MMO has content that is meant for tryhards only. Savage isnt even as close to gating casuals out as Mythic is. Without enraging most competent groups could just do a slow grind down on any boss as ooming a healer entirely is near impossible now, so then the people who want a challenge no longer have one since you could slowly tickle a boss while dodging circles and you would always win, hell you could kill bosses with healer DoTs alone.