How about we change the "dps check" a little?

[Arngrim_Greyashe]

Are people really asking for participation awards? You have to be kidding me. This is absolutely hilarious. There's absolutely no reason why this should happen. You don't deserve anything for failing. If you did, then what's the point of trying to get better? It defeats the whole purpose of content. That's like asking for it to count as a clear even though the whole party died. No. Just no.

[CorbinDallas]

It's really not dumbing down anything, though. If you want the best rewards you still have to beat the timer, and doing so would be just as challenging as it is now. It seems like the only thing being suggested is making it so the enrage timer isn't guaranteed death, so a casual group would be more likely to be able to clear it.

The 2 things aren't really related; the "hardcore" experience is in no way altered. The "problem" seems to boil down to some people not wanting casual players to even be able to clear the content, and their reasons being varying degrees of "fuck them." It's just petty.


Not sure how the loot system works in this game yet, but yes, barring people who don't beat the timer from specific rewards is fine. I'm sure even without the timer Savage is harder, though, so you should get something Savage specific for the clear. Allow casuals to participate but give them weaker rewards for weaker performance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not sure why many of you lose your minds over that prospect.

Yeah no, it's a ridiculous prospect. If you can't meet the skill requirement to beat a DPS check or an enrage, you simply don't deserve anything at all. That reward is the carrot on the stick to get you in there in the first place, whether that be items or the sense of satisfaction from overcoming the challenge.

[Arngrim_Greyashe]

It's really not dumbing down anything, though. If you want the best rewards you still have to beat the timer, and doing so would be just as challenging as it is now. It seems like the only thing being suggested is making it so the enrage timer isn't guaranteed death, so a casual group would be more likely to be able to clear it.

The 2 things aren't really related; the "hardcore" experience is in no way altered. The "problem" seems to boil down to some people not wanting casual players to even be able to clear the content, and their reasons being varying degrees of "fuck them." It's just petty.


Not sure how the loot system works in this game yet, but yes, barring people who don't beat the timer from specific rewards is fine. I'm sure even without the timer Savage is harder, though, so you should get something Savage specific for the clear. Allow casuals to participate but give them weaker rewards for weaker performance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not sure why many of you lose your minds over that prospect.

You do get casual rewards. In Eden normal. There's literally no reason why you should get rewards for failing. Nothing else in this game has such a system. Why would savage? If you want to beat savage, how about you actually try and clear it?

[LalaRu]

Who knows me, knows I'm often white-knighting casuals and sometime gets into heated discussions, BUT in this case the savage is for endgame players, and it is correct it stays there.

Savage is not for casuals. That's reason you have normal and savage version of same raid.

[HumanNinjaToo]

It's really not dumbing down anything, though. If you want the best rewards you still have to beat the timer, and doing so would be just as challenging as it is now. It seems like the only thing being suggested is making it so the enrage timer isn't guaranteed death, so a casual group would be more likely to be able to clear it.

The 2 things aren't really related; the "hardcore" experience is in no way altered. The "problem" seems to boil down to some people not wanting casual players to even be able to clear the content, and their reasons being varying degrees of "fuck them." It's just petty.


Not sure how the loot system works in this game yet, but yes, barring people who don't beat the timer from specific rewards is fine. I'm sure even without the timer Savage is harder, though, so you should get something Savage specific for the clear. Allow casuals to participate but give them weaker rewards for weaker performance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not sure why many of you lose your minds over that prospect.

I think what we have here is a communication break-down. I don't necessarily think it's petty to require that a group of players meet specific requirements to get specific rewards. The DPS check is the challenge, if the challenge is not being met, there should be no reward for anyone. I may be wrong, but it's the idea of having the same trial with normal, hard, and extreme. You're not getting locked out of content because you can't complete the extreme version. You're still able to beat the normal and hard version. With extreme, the requirement to win is marginalized, therefore a greater reward for those that can complete. They should not water down the extreme so everyone can complete it and then give rewards based on contribution to the party. That is essential a participation trophy, and arguably counter productive to the concept of a reward system.

[Goji1639]

I think what we have here is a communication break-down. I don't necessarily think it's petty to require that a group of players meet specific requirements to get specific rewards. The DPS check is the challenge, if the challenge is not being met, there should be no reward for anyone. I may be wrong, but it's the idea of having the same trial with normal, hard, and extreme. You're not getting locked out of content because you can't complete the extreme version. You're still able to beat the normal and hard version. With extreme, the requirement to win is marginalized, therefore a greater reward for those that can complete. They should not water down the extreme so everyone can complete it and then give rewards based on contribution to the party. That is essential a participation trophy, and arguably counter productive to the concept of a reward system.

All I'm really saying is it really makes no difference. If the enrage timer still allowed the content to be cleared, but for a lesser reward, no one really loses anything. Casuals gain another tier of content they can at take a casual run at, and hardcores still have their entire challenge and reward system completely in tact.

All I'm getting in opposition to this is a lot of non-specific banter about "participation trophies," and how bad that is. What specifically is being lost if this hypothetical, where casuals could clear Savage content for lesser rewards, were to happen?

[AngelCheese77]

Though I am not a hard core player myself, even I will have to disagree.

Those who do things like DPS checks are there to get past difficult content because of the rewards they get. Lowering the DPS check would (theoretically) help more people do the content, but then level the playfield too much so there is no reall challenge for those looking for it.

Know your limitations. Either adapt or stay how you are. Don't force others.

[HumanNinjaToo]

All I'm really saying is it really makes no difference. If the enrage timer still allowed the content to be cleared, but for a lesser reward, no one really loses anything. Casuals gain another tier of content they can at take a casual run at, and hardcores still have their entire challenge and reward system completely in tact.

All I'm getting in opposition to this is a lot of non-specific banter about "participation trophies," and how bad that is. What specifically is being lost if this hypothetical, where casuals could clear Savage content for lesser rewards, were to happen?

I guess this is just one of those cases of philosophical disagreement on the concept of reward systems. My opinion is just that if a bar is set, it should not have any options to essentially fail and still get rewarded based on performance rate.

I liken this to a sports game: Team A wins, team B loses, but let's go ahead and give team B a trophy because they tried hard. I disagree with this line of thinking. Look at baseball for example: If team A is 'x' amount of runs ahead of team B, the game is called after the 4th inning. We don't let team B keep going and lose even worse then they already have just so we can say we are doing all we can to be fair to team B. That would arguably be cruel to team B. What would be even more cruel would to let team B finish the game, and then only take 3 out 9 of the players to go get pizza at Domino's, because they performed the best, and make the other 6 players eat a DG brand pizza lunchable.

[Qeilos]

What kind of fail condition would you suggest that can make the best players of the game fail but still somehow not impede casuals?

[Gruntler]

That said for the rest of us who can dps we're being let down by people who can't, and for something like Crown of the Immaculate it's an extreme case of if more than 1 person dies at any point of the fight it's a guaranteed wipe because you need all the dps you can get, and sometimes even the best dps can't avoid everything all the time because we're not robots.

One or two dps doing above average--not even awesome, just above average, can clear that fight with a few deaths on the team.


https://www.fflogs.com/reports/MwRm9...pe=damage-done

Here's one kill, with two dps doing above average, half the party doing below average, and ten deaths.

TEN. DEATHS.

The enrage timer on innocence is NO WHERE near as tight as you think it is, if you have a couple players on your team who perform above average. Not perfect. Not even abnormally well. Just above average.