How about we change the "dps check" a little?

[Paladinleeds]

Yes, if you play offline there are a handful of bosses that might be difficult even if you seriously over-level. Even then the games have some very effective cheese builds.

Also, while I do think reward quality should be based on performance, I think the existence of "you won't be good enough; don't even bother" content for casual players is a little much, for a game they're paying the same amount as everyone else is for. Especially when the only reason to freeze them out is just to protect the ego's of some insecure children who invest way too much of their self-worth into this kind of thing.

Savage is deliberately designed to be challenging though. For the story, you're already getting the normal mode. Plus, for Savage at least, you can always go back and just unsync it, to remove some of the pressure, in the following expansion. Ultimate was designed for the 1% though. Are we going to suggest adding that to Ultimate too, which was designed to be brutally difficult? Savage is meant to be for those that want a challenge. Participation rewards go against that if you ask me.

[DavidIven]

I repeat, you pay to access the game, that's it
If the content is hard for you, git gud or fuck off, go play the rest 95% of the game.

[Goji1639]

Savage is deliberately designed to be challenging though. For the story, you're already getting the normal mode. Plus, for Savage at least, you can always go back and just unsync it, to remove some of the pressure, in the following expansion. Ultimate was designed for the 1% though. Are we going to suggest adding that to Ultimate too, which was designed to be brutally difficult? Savage is meant to be for those that want a challenge. Participation rewards go against that if you ask me.

I get that it's for the challenge, and that's why things like enrage timers exist; for people who want to be challenged. Casuals clearing doesn't take anything away from the people who want to push themselves harder, and I agree those people should be more heavily rewarded. This still doesn't explain what using enrage timers to completely freeze casual players out of this content accomplishes.

I repeat, you pay to access the game, that's it
If the content is hard for you, git gud or fuck off, go play the rest 95% of the game.

lol, stuff like this doesn't do much to hurt my assumption that you're all just being petty.

[Sove92]

I do think casual players simply not being allowed to clear certain content is dumb.

The only thing that disallows a casual from clearing content, is their own refusal to get better. You don't need to be hardcore to clear the hardest content in this game, even ultimate doesn't require that, it just takes you longer.

As far as E1S to E3S goes, there aren't even any real dps checks that force you to push for dps, you just need to execute the mechanics correctly, while doing your normal rotations (chew gum and walk at the same time). No need to find every trick that lets you squeeze out 5% more dps.

[HumanNinjaToo]

... I think the existence of "you won't be good enough; don't even bother" content for casual players is a little much, for a game they're paying the same amount as everyone else is for. Especially when the only reason to freeze them out is just to protect the ego's of some insecure children who invest way too much of their self-worth into this kind of thing.

Yeah, all content should be available to everyone who is paying the sub, for sure. But if we are talking about people being kept out of content because they don't have the skill to keep up with the more skilled players, then I don't think there is a lot anyone can do about that. The only work around is playing the content with friends who don't care if you aren't always up to par.

I myself have not done/attempted any of the hardest content in the game yet so I cannot speak to the experience. But if my skill level isn't up to par, then that means I practice until it is, or I resign myself to not be able to participate I guess. IDK, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I would not advocate dumbing things down because I suck though.

[CorbinDallas]

No idea how realistic this actually is, but if it's an accessible option for casual player then fair enough.


So, what exactly is being taken away from hardcores if casual players are still able to clear the content if they don't beat the enrage timer? If you get better rewards for actually beating the timer then what's the problem? Is it that they still feel special but not quite special enough, so the only way is to lock other people out?

Sorry, but the reasons you all have as to why casual players shouldn't be allowed to clear this content are just petty.

OK, you can clear the 4th Savage fights, but you only get a page. You're not allowed the mounts, coffers, or actual gear drops. How about that?

Such a ridiculous thing to even consider. You either do the content properly and get rewarded, or just don't do it at all. I'm firmly in the camp of no participation trophies.

[Goji1639]

Yeah, all content should be available to everyone who is paying the sub, for sure. But if we are talking about people being kept out of content because they don't have the skill to keep up with the more skilled players, then I don't think there is a lot anyone can do about that. The only work around is playing the content with friends who don't care if you aren't always up to par.

I myself have not done/attempted any of the hardest content in the game yet so I cannot speak to the experience. But if my skill level isn't up to par, then that means I practice until it is, or I resign myself to not be able to participate I guess. IDK, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I would not advocate dumbing things down because I suck though.

It's really not dumbing down anything, though. If you want the best rewards you still have to beat the timer, and doing so would be just as challenging as it is now. It seems like the only thing being suggested is making it so the enrage timer isn't guaranteed death, so a casual group would be more likely to be able to clear it.

The 2 things aren't really related; the "hardcore" experience is in no way altered. The "problem" seems to boil down to some people not wanting casual players to even be able to clear the content, and their reasons being varying degrees of "fuck them." It's just petty.

OK, you can clear the 4th Savage fights, but you only get a page. You're not allowed the mounts, coffers, or actual gear drops. How about that?

Such a ridiculous thing to even consider. You either do the content properly and get rewarded, or just don't do it at all. I'm firmly in the camp of no participation trophies.

Not sure how the loot system works in this game yet, but yes, barring people who don't beat the timer from specific rewards is fine. I'm sure even without the timer Savage is harder, though, so you should get something Savage specific for the clear. Allow casuals to participate but give them weaker rewards for weaker performance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not sure why many of you lose your minds over that prospect.

[Vidu]

I don't really understand this mentality when it comes to a game. When everyone's paying the same amount no one should be locked out of or denied content for not being good at it; there should just be "better" rewards for those who are good at it.

I do think casual players simply not being allowed to clear certain content is dumb. Not that I feel it's a huge deal, as there is plenty of casual content; but you people preaching about "participation trophies," need to stop getting so much of your sense of self-worth from a video game.

Everyone is allowed to clear every content - the question is wether or not they can actually achieve that. And thats up to everyone themself...

[Qeilos]

Yes, if you play offline there are a handful of bosses that might be difficult even if you seriously over-level. Even then the games have some very effective cheese builds.

Also, while I do think reward quality should be based on performance, I think the existence of "you won't be good enough; don't even bother" content for casual players is a little much, for a game they're paying the same amount as everyone else is for. Especially when the only reason to freeze them out is just to protect the ego's of some insecure children who invest way too much of their self-worth into this kind of thing.

But basically every MMO has content that is meant for tryhards only. Savage isnt even as close to gating casuals out as Mythic is. Without enraging most competent groups could just do a slow grind down on any boss as ooming a healer entirely is near impossible now, so then the people who want a challenge no longer have one since you could slowly tickle a boss while dodging circles and you would always win, hell you could kill bosses with healer DoTs alone.

[geekgirl101]

As a DPS, your job is to do just that. If you can’t do that, then no you do not deserve a reward.

That said for the rest of us who can dps we're being let down by people who can't, and for something like Crown of the Immaculate it's an extreme case of if more than 1 person dies at any point of the fight it's a guaranteed wipe because you need all the dps you can get, and sometimes even the best dps can't avoid everything all the time because we're not robots.