How about we change the "dps check" a little?

[Goji1639]

Yeah, all content should be available to everyone who is paying the sub, for sure. But if we are talking about people being kept out of content because they don't have the skill to keep up with the more skilled players, then I don't think there is a lot anyone can do about that. The only work around is playing the content with friends who don't care if you aren't always up to par.

I myself have not done/attempted any of the hardest content in the game yet so I cannot speak to the experience. But if my skill level isn't up to par, then that means I practice until it is, or I resign myself to not be able to participate I guess. IDK, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I would not advocate dumbing things down because I suck though.

It's really not dumbing down anything, though. If you want the best rewards you still have to beat the timer, and doing so would be just as challenging as it is now. It seems like the only thing being suggested is making it so the enrage timer isn't guaranteed death, so a casual group would be more likely to be able to clear it.

The 2 things aren't really related; the "hardcore" experience is in no way altered. The "problem" seems to boil down to some people not wanting casual players to even be able to clear the content, and their reasons being varying degrees of "fuck them." It's just petty.

OK, you can clear the 4th Savage fights, but you only get a page. You're not allowed the mounts, coffers, or actual gear drops. How about that?

Such a ridiculous thing to even consider. You either do the content properly and get rewarded, or just don't do it at all. I'm firmly in the camp of no participation trophies.

Not sure how the loot system works in this game yet, but yes, barring people who don't beat the timer from specific rewards is fine. I'm sure even without the timer Savage is harder, though, so you should get something Savage specific for the clear. Allow casuals to participate but give them weaker rewards for weaker performance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not sure why many of you lose your minds over that prospect.

[CorbinDallas]

It's really not dumbing down anything, though. If you want the best rewards you still have to beat the timer, and doing so would be just as challenging as it is now. It seems like the only thing being suggested is making it so the enrage timer isn't guaranteed death, so a casual group would be more likely to be able to clear it.

The 2 things aren't really related; the "hardcore" experience is in no way altered. The "problem" seems to boil down to some people not wanting casual players to even be able to clear the content, and their reasons being varying degrees of "fuck them." It's just petty.


Not sure how the loot system works in this game yet, but yes, barring people who don't beat the timer from specific rewards is fine. I'm sure even without the timer Savage is harder, though, so you should get something Savage specific for the clear. Allow casuals to participate but give them weaker rewards for weaker performance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not sure why many of you lose your minds over that prospect.

Yeah no, it's a ridiculous prospect. If you can't meet the skill requirement to beat a DPS check or an enrage, you simply don't deserve anything at all. That reward is the carrot on the stick to get you in there in the first place, whether that be items or the sense of satisfaction from overcoming the challenge.

[HumanNinjaToo]

It's really not dumbing down anything, though. If you want the best rewards you still have to beat the timer, and doing so would be just as challenging as it is now. It seems like the only thing being suggested is making it so the enrage timer isn't guaranteed death, so a casual group would be more likely to be able to clear it.

The 2 things aren't really related; the "hardcore" experience is in no way altered. The "problem" seems to boil down to some people not wanting casual players to even be able to clear the content, and their reasons being varying degrees of "fuck them." It's just petty.


Not sure how the loot system works in this game yet, but yes, barring people who don't beat the timer from specific rewards is fine. I'm sure even without the timer Savage is harder, though, so you should get something Savage specific for the clear. Allow casuals to participate but give them weaker rewards for weaker performance. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Not sure why many of you lose your minds over that prospect.

I think what we have here is a communication break-down. I don't necessarily think it's petty to require that a group of players meet specific requirements to get specific rewards. The DPS check is the challenge, if the challenge is not being met, there should be no reward for anyone. I may be wrong, but it's the idea of having the same trial with normal, hard, and extreme. You're not getting locked out of content because you can't complete the extreme version. You're still able to beat the normal and hard version. With extreme, the requirement to win is marginalized, therefore a greater reward for those that can complete. They should not water down the extreme so everyone can complete it and then give rewards based on contribution to the party. That is essential a participation trophy, and arguably counter productive to the concept of a reward system.

[Goji1639]

I think what we have here is a communication break-down. I don't necessarily think it's petty to require that a group of players meet specific requirements to get specific rewards. The DPS check is the challenge, if the challenge is not being met, there should be no reward for anyone. I may be wrong, but it's the idea of having the same trial with normal, hard, and extreme. You're not getting locked out of content because you can't complete the extreme version. You're still able to beat the normal and hard version. With extreme, the requirement to win is marginalized, therefore a greater reward for those that can complete. They should not water down the extreme so everyone can complete it and then give rewards based on contribution to the party. That is essential a participation trophy, and arguably counter productive to the concept of a reward system.

All I'm really saying is it really makes no difference. If the enrage timer still allowed the content to be cleared, but for a lesser reward, no one really loses anything. Casuals gain another tier of content they can at take a casual run at, and hardcores still have their entire challenge and reward system completely in tact.

All I'm getting in opposition to this is a lot of non-specific banter about "participation trophies," and how bad that is. What specifically is being lost if this hypothetical, where casuals could clear Savage content for lesser rewards, were to happen?

[HumanNinjaToo]

All I'm really saying is it really makes no difference. If the enrage timer still allowed the content to be cleared, but for a lesser reward, no one really loses anything. Casuals gain another tier of content they can at take a casual run at, and hardcores still have their entire challenge and reward system completely in tact.

All I'm getting in opposition to this is a lot of non-specific banter about "participation trophies," and how bad that is. What specifically is being lost if this hypothetical, where casuals could clear Savage content for lesser rewards, were to happen?

I guess this is just one of those cases of philosophical disagreement on the concept of reward systems. My opinion is just that if a bar is set, it should not have any options to essentially fail and still get rewarded based on performance rate.

I liken this to a sports game: Team A wins, team B loses, but let's go ahead and give team B a trophy because they tried hard. I disagree with this line of thinking. Look at baseball for example: If team A is 'x' amount of runs ahead of team B, the game is called after the 4th inning. We don't let team B keep going and lose even worse then they already have just so we can say we are doing all we can to be fair to team B. That would arguably be cruel to team B. What would be even more cruel would to let team B finish the game, and then only take 3 out 9 of the players to go get pizza at Domino's, because they performed the best, and make the other 6 players eat a DG brand pizza lunchable.

[Nora_of_Mira]

All I'm getting in opposition to this is a lot of non-specific banter about "participation trophies," and how bad that is. What specifically is being lost if this hypothetical, where casuals could clear Savage content for lesser rewards, were to happen?

you're losing any sense of pride and accomplishment.

while that line is a meme, it is partially true. You don't see any World First clears on dungeons or MSQ trials. You only see them when the content is deserving of the effort with high difficulty and high bar for clearing. you have to be decent at this game to clear these fights while they're current. "clearing" the fight under some "casual" setting will never be seen as a real clear in current content.

the "easy mode" you speak of already exists, its the option to unsync these fights way in the future when you're 100 iLvls higher than the fight.

[UnrealTai]

you're losing any sense of pride and accomplishment.

while that line is a meme, it is partially true. You don't see any World First clears on dungeons or MSQ trials. You only see them when the content is deserving of the effort with high difficulty and high bar for clearing. you have to be decent at this game to clear these fights while they're current. "clearing" the fight under some "casual" setting will never be seen as a real clear in current content.

the "easy mode" you speak of already exists, its the option to unsync these fights way in the future when you're 100 iLvls higher than the fight.

This ^

SE already destroyed the sense of kill accomplishment in PVP for 5.0, because a minor amount of pvpers cried they were too stupid to figure out how to kill a healer.

We dont need that boring garbage brought to PVE as well

I mean 14 is already crazy easy compared to MMOs a decade ago, I cant fathom it going any easier.
IMO it could make do by making it harder, and old content at least require minimum ilvl settings. Really prefer to not fall asleep mid play from content being nerfed and boring.

[NessaWyvern]

Casuals gain another tier of content they can at take a casual run at, and hardcores still have their entire challenge and reward system completely in tact.

I used to do a ton of PvP in HW.
Casuals have already had PvP ruined for hardcore players, so that they could play it too.
I don't want raiding to get the same treatment. Casuals would applaud it, and say its great, but you'll seriously alienate the more hardcore players. Most of my PvP FC mates stopped playing after the PvP changes in SB. You'll see the same with the raiding community if they accommodate to Casuals, rather than the people who actually enjoy difficult content.