Lack of End Game Content

[Kaylessa]

CONGRATULATIONS to Entropy for the world first

[Kamatsu]

The only way to really prevent WF groups from day 1/2/3-ing it is to gear gate, which (if we recall back to Gordias) nobody likes.

If you read enough of the post's here in this thread from those pushing for 'endgame raiding' this is exactly what they want. They have said that endgame raiding without exclusive gear with better stats is pointless... yes they want endgame raids, but they want it to have gear that's better than non-raid gear.

So say they get what they want... what happens when they clear the new endgame raids and have the new BiS gear? They ask for more raids that are harder, that require the prior raids BiS gear to complete, etc.

If all they were interested in was 'hard' raids, trials, etc... then they have plenty of options - the Ultimate's, doing raids & trials synched @ min ilvl, etc. But they've said enough times this isn't what they want... they want SE to work on raids that are 'current', that are set at the end of the 'current content'... and they most def want it to bring in gear-gating, as they specifically have said time and again they want the raids to have better gear as otherwise not really worth doing.

I also find it amusing how they constantly try and claim that FFXIV was 'their game' that 'casuals' ruined. Funny thing is XIV has never been an end-game raiding game. While some of it's content was harder at launch than it is now, it was never about the endgame raids... but the story to get there. Unlike games like WoW where the "story" ended in the games raids... XIV's raids were side-story, had important lore but not needed to complete for the story.

What they could say is that companies like Blizzard ruined their 'genre' since they saw that they could make lots of money by making an MMO that was accessible to everyone. Thus WoW came into being - an MMO that was accessible to casuals, that ppl could solo most of the content... sure it had endgame raids, and focused a lot of it's marketing & dev time on the raids... but fact is unlike prior MMO's like Everquest, UO, etc people could play solo and do the vast majority of the content solo. About the only thing that couldn't be solo'ed was dungeons, raids, world bosses and some area's/events in the open world. There's a specific reason hunter's were the most played class in WoW for the longest time - it was the easiest class to solo content with.

Prior to WoW, the MMO's that were around were a lot harder, more focused on grouping, etc. Games like Everquest were extremely hard to solo, had group-only fights/area's/mobs to fight, had timed group-only raid mobs, etc. There were also other MMO's like UO that were hard to solo due to open-world PvP design rather than hard-to-fight ai enemies... which meant playing in groups to stop being ganked by other groups of players.

And then came WoW, which made MMO's popular due to being able to be solo'ed. And so came the flood of "WoW clones" and the "casulazation' of the MMO genre... as dev's turned away from hard content that only a small % of ppl had any interest in, and moved instead to 'easy' content that the masses liked and would pay for., There's a reason that the big MMO's (whether due to financial success, or being 'known' and still earning enough to be online) that are still around are heavy story focused MMO's, that focus a lot on being able to be played solo, with just a touch of non-required hard-content -> MMO's such as ESO, FFXIV, SW:TOR, GW2, etc.

[Kaylessa]

What they could say is that companies like Blizzard ruined their 'genre' since they saw that they could make lots of money by making an MMO that was accessible to everyone. Thus WoW came into being - an MMO that was accessible to casuals, that ppl could solo most of the content... sure it had endgame raids, and focused a lot of it's marketing & dev time on the raids... but fact is unlike prior MMO's like Everquest, UO, etc people could play solo and do the vast majority of the content solo. About the only thing that couldn't be solo'ed was dungeons, raids, world bosses and some area's/events in the open world. There's a specific reason hunter's were the most played class in WoW for the longest time - it was the easiest class to solo content with.

Prior to WoW, the MMO's that were around were a lot harder, more focused on grouping, etc. Games like Everquest were extremely hard to solo, had group-only fights/area's/mobs to fight, had timed group-only raid mobs, etc. There were also other MMO's like UO that were hard to solo due to open-world PvP design rather than hard-to-fight ai enemies... which meant playing in groups to stop being ganked by other groups of players.

And then came WoW, which made MMO's popular due to being able to be solo'ed. And so came the flood of "WoW clones" and the "casulazation' of the MMO genre... as dev's turned away from hard content that only a small % of ppl had any interest in, and moved instead to 'easy' content that the masses liked and would pay for., There's a reason that the big MMO's (whether due to financial success, or being 'known' and still earning enough to be online) that are still around are heavy story focused MMO's, that focus a lot on being able to be played solo, with just a touch of non-required hard-content -> MMO's such as ESO, FFXIV, SW:TOR, GW2, etc.

Yeah, WoW killed Everquest by aiming at a more casual audience, that is definitely true. Blizzard have been really good at taking a genre, and making it popular by simplifying it. Hearthstone, WoW etc. They became huge by stealing the best bits from other games … which is why it's not surprising they've just pinched FFXIV's level sync idea for dungeons and are testing it in their PTR :P

ESO isn't heavily story focused. Unlike FFXIV which has a strong main story, ESO has more in depth sidequests which makes for a more interesting questing experience and ties into their strong exploration gameplay. Still strongly solo though

[linay]

The best players in the world should clear content fast, but if it takes them only a day or two then S-E has completely failed in tuning. The world first clears should take 7-14 days. Sadly, this first tier will be dead within 24 hours. That really isn't acceptable.

It's a failure in tuning if it doesn't meet what they intended, but apparently, it does. If you disagree, then you might have a different philosophy than the developer.

Because people refuse to discuss the topic.

You don't get to reject a topic that's introduced in the opening post.

[Kaylessa]

You don't get to reject a topic that's introduced in the opening post.

They weren't. You keep trying to introduce things you want to discuss that have nothing to do with the opening post purely to promote an agenda. Case in point your idea that old content with different rewards is "endgame content", it isn't, it's old content with different rewards.

[Zabuza]

CONGRATULATIONS to Entropy for the world first

So 14 hours after the raid released... lol. I'm sad. Grats to them but, I'm sad the raid was that easy that world firsts could clear it that fast.

If you read enough of the post's here in this thread from those pushing for 'endgame raiding' this is exactly what they want. They have said that endgame raiding without exclusive gear with better stats is pointless... yes they want endgame raids, but they want it to have gear that's better than non-raid gear.

So say they get what they want... what happens when they clear the new endgame raids and have the new BiS gear? They ask for more raids that are harder, that require the prior raids BiS gear to complete, etc.

If all they were interested in was 'hard' raids, trials, etc... then they have plenty of options - the Ultimate's, doing raids & trials synched @ min ilvl, etc. But they've said enough times this isn't what they want... they want SE to work on raids that are 'current', that are set at the end of the 'current content'... and they most def want it to bring in gear-gating, as they specifically have said time and again they want the raids to have better gear as otherwise not really worth doing.

I also find it amusing how they constantly try and claim that FFXIV was 'their game' that 'casuals' ruined. Funny thing is XIV has never been an end-game raiding game. While some of it's content was harder at launch than it is now, it was never about the endgame raids... but the story to get there. Unlike games like WoW where the "story" ended in the games raids... XIV's raids were side-story, had important lore but not needed to complete for the story.

What they could say is that companies like Blizzard ruined their 'genre' since they saw that they could make lots of money by making an MMO that was accessible to everyone. Thus WoW came into being - an MMO that was accessible to casuals, that ppl could solo most of the content... sure it had endgame raids, and focused a lot of it's marketing & dev time on the raids... but fact is unlike prior MMO's like Everquest, UO, etc people could play solo and do the vast majority of the content solo. About the only thing that couldn't be solo'ed was dungeons, raids, world bosses and some area's/events in the open world. There's a specific reason hunter's were the most played class in WoW for the longest time - it was the easiest class to solo content with.

Prior to WoW, the MMO's that were around were a lot harder, more focused on grouping, etc. Games like Everquest were extremely hard to solo, had group-only fights/area's/mobs to fight, had timed group-only raid mobs, etc. There were also other MMO's like UO that were hard to solo due to open-world PvP design rather than hard-to-fight ai enemies... which meant playing in groups to stop being ganked by other groups of players.

And then came WoW, which made MMO's popular due to being able to be solo'ed. And so came the flood of "WoW clones" and the "casulazation' of the MMO genre... as dev's turned away from hard content that only a small % of ppl had any interest in, and moved instead to 'easy' content that the masses liked and would pay for., There's a reason that the big MMO's (whether due to financial success, or being 'known' and still earning enough to be online) that are still around are heavy story focused MMO's, that focus a lot on being able to be played solo, with just a touch of non-required hard-content -> MMO's such as ESO, FFXIV, SW:TOR, GW2, etc.

Agreed, while WoW was a breath of life for casuals, it was the death knell of this genre of me. Now what I play are to me, shells of former MMO glory.

[sauc]

Yeah but they didn't sacrifice the end game for this casualization, there's still a mythic (ultimate) version of every boss every tier along with 3 other difficulties and they have 5 man mythics. And back in vanilla raids were as exclusive as they got and they still jacked up to like 6 million subs. It doesn't have to be one or the other, this game likely has millions of players now with a sub fee and cash shop money can't possibly be an issue

[Hawklaser]

You don't get to reject a topic that's introduced in the opening post.

OP: Lack of end game content.

Probably over 90% of the posts in here are people going back and forth about what is or isn't considered endgame content(usually citing content one can start doing at lv1), promptly followed by you can't talk about lack of content if you haven't done whatever random content X to completion.

After all the most common response has been "Do you have all jobs at 80, every title, mount, minion, glamour, and triple triad card? No? Then you can't say anything about lack of content" or some version of it.

All in all, avoiding actually discussing the actual end game content, and anything about it in favor of just trying to get the other side to shut up and go away. There are a few in here that are still taking the discussion seriously which is why I am still following and posting in the thread.

[linay]

They weren't. You keep trying to introduce things you want to discuss that have nothing to do with the opening post purely to promote an agenda. Case in point your idea that old content with different rewards is "endgame content", it isn't, it's old content with different rewards.

These are the very first two sentences in the opening post:

We all know Final Fantasy has a formula for each expansion. The question is, is it enough to keep max level players sated.

If you don't see how broad of a topic answering that can lead to, that's your problem.

Even the final question can be answered differently than you might expect:

I'm interested in knowing what other players think who have experienced other MMORPGS at max level. Do you find yourself running out of things to do at max level? Obviously this excludes things like, leveling, old content etc.

If not - please provide examples of the kind of content you play at level 80 that keeps you busy.

A valid potential answer to that is: Yes, FFXIV has less hardcore endgame content than what I'm used to in other MMORPG, but I find myself enjoying the non-hardcore content as well (edgame or otherwise), so I can keep myself busy doing them in between Savage tiers, especially with Ultimate added to the mix. And there are other games I play as well.

[linay]

OP: Lack of end game content.

Probably over 90% of the posts in here are people going back and forth about what is or isn't considered endgame content(usually citing content one can start doing at lv1), promptly followed by you can't talk about lack of content if you haven't done whatever random content X to completion.

After all the most common response has been "Do you have all jobs at 80, every title, mount, minion, glamour, and triple triad card? No? Then you can't say anything about lack of content" or some version of it.

All in all, avoiding actually discussing the actual end game content, and anything about it in favor of just trying to get the other side to shut up and go away. There are a few in here that are still taking the discussion seriously which is why I am still following and posting in the thread.

Because the topic is framed in asking about what's keeping you busy after reaching level cap. The responders simply disagree that only specific type of content is worthy of consideration in keeping oneself busy. And unlike some other MMORPG, your character isn't done after reaching level cap with one class. So leveling another job is a valid activity to do after reaching cap. In other MMORPG, reaching level cap with one class is it, so all the activity is funneled toward level cap, but that's not necessary for a character in FFXIV.