Lack of End Game Content

[Zabuza]

Casuals didn't change the game, this game has been pretty much running the same cycle with while trying something new here and there since ARR, has it been made easier? Yes, in some aspects Coil was basically at savage difficulty with no normal mode, and some instances here and there have been nerffed as time went on, however lets not pretend you've had a larger slice of this pie, in fact raiders have gained some more content like Ultimate and BA as time has gone on.
You also avoided the point of my question, you're whole argument which you said again is Casuals have more, raiders have less, give us some of your stuff, it won't hurt you as much as it would benefit us. That is the exact situation I gave you, PVP'ers have less, you have more, given staff with the right talents are sighted by Yoshi as a reason they can't do everything, only the person who dose raids could give to the PVP'er, so won't you benefit them more than you'll be hurt? You'll still have more than them, they'll just get a little more to enjoy.

I did not avoid your question. I answered it directly by saying if I had 95% of the pie as you did, I would give up 5% to PvPers or casuals, gladly. In the current situation where raiders are already struggling for content? No, I would not. The difference is, as I stated, that casuals would still have more than enough to do if 5% was taken. And yes, they did change the game. Dungeons used to be more difficult. Normal level raids did not used to exist. MSQ fights used to be more difficult. Tanks used to have to actually worry about threat management, and certain DPS had to actually worry about managing their TP. Please tell me more about how casuals didn't change this game and gradually take away the challenging factors.

[Lunavi]

I did not avoid your question. I answered it directly by saying if I had 95% of the pie as you did, I would give up 5% to PvPers or casuals, gladly. In the current situation where raiders are already struggling for content? No, I would not. The difference is, as I stated, that casuals would still have more than enough to do if 5% was taken. And yes, they did change the game. Dungeons used to be more difficult. Normal level raids did not used to exist. MSQ fights used to be more difficult. Tanks used to have to actually worry about threat management, and certain DPS had to actually worry about managing their TP. Please tell me more about how casuals didn't change this game and gradually take away the challenging factors.

The problem if having high-end raiding as a main focus for content and having it have a lot of content is that it by its very nature is excluding. Everyone can participate in a round of triple triad or get a nice apartment and start furnishing it, but only the top players can engage in high end content, and this is a problem if a lot of the game focused on it as it would literally exclude people from a lion's share of the content. The goal for a sub based MMO is to have as many active subscriptions as possible, this is not done by closing the doors at 98% of the potential customers. I know, I also hate the TP change, but I can understand where they are coming from in having very little focus on high end content.

[LadyKairi]

The problem if having high-end raiding as a main focus for content and having it have a lot of content is that it by its very nature is excluding. Everyone can participate in a round of triple triad or get a nice apartment and start furnishing it, but only the top players can engage in high end content, and this is a problem if a lot of the game focused on it as it would literally exclude people from a lion's share of the content. The goal for a sub based MMO is to have as many active subscriptions as possible, this is not done by closing the doors at 98% of the potential customers. I know, I also hate the TP change, but I can understand where they are coming from in having very little focus on high end content.

The request is not to make the main focus on high end content, though.

[BlitzAceRush]

I did not avoid your question. I answered it directly by saying if I had 95% of the pie as you did, I would give up 5% to PvPers or casuals, gladly. In the current situation where raiders are already struggling for content? No, I would not. The difference is, as I stated, that casuals would still have more than enough to do if 5% was taken. And yes, they did change the game. Dungeons used to be more difficult. Normal level raids did not used to exist. MSQ fights used to be more difficult. Tanks used to have to actually worry about threat management, and certain DPS had to actually worry about managing their TP. Please tell me more about how casuals didn't change this game and gradually take away the challenging factors.

I already admitted the game has been made easier but that's again as I pointed out because SE wants a large amount of players to enjoy their game, locking them out of several parts of it doesn't help that goal, however the content spread has always been the same, in fact raiders have more now then the "glory days" of ARR, also your argument was lacking of end game content now that's not finding purchase its now about the difficulty overall.
This games goal is to get as many people in and enjoying content as they can so they get as many people paying as they can, they are doing a good job at this, you've given no reason other than "I want" that would convince them to change.
The game isn't dying, it's growing, the game isn't stale for the majority, the games practicability is a strength for the majority and Yoshi and the team are still open to trying new challenging content when they can, but not at the cost of everyone else.

If you want to change your argument to the game getting easier which has nothing to do with endgame content, that's fine but it kind of shows the weakness of the former argument if its so easily abandoned, but my argument would be they've simply made a greater divide between casuals and hardcore, locking story away was a poor move they admitted and so normal mode was added, raiders lost nothing from that it was simply an addition. However during Stoomrblood we were told the reason a dungeon was lost was so they could add new content so lets examine that.

Both parties lost a dungeon, raiders gained Ultimate, a piece of content next to no casuals will ever experience outside of twitch/youtube while the Casuals (this is debatable given its nature but for the sake of argument we'll say they gained it) gained Eukrea.
However, the raiders would have no issue going into Eukrea for their relic or because they enjoyed it, then there's BA another thing more geared towards raiders add to that the fact from this topic most raiders don't consider running ex dungeons as good content and during Stormblood raiders lost arguably nothing of value and gained 2 and a half things of value VS casuals who lost one thing of value and gained half a thing of value depending on where you stand some would feel nothing of value.

So all last expansion the raiders actually made out better than the casuals on the new content front in addition to all the usual content this is why to a lot of them it just feels like you're trying to change the game into something its not, you can argue the games skill level has been lowered but it's amount of high end game content has grown not shrunk. You use ARR coil not having a normal mode but you also didn't have ultimate back then or BA and as for losing savage exclusive bosses that wasn't what Yoshi said or why he said it, it was actually raiders who didn't like having to get past a "door boss" to get to the actual boss, just like it was raiders who didn't like running through trash to get to the challenging boss, the casuals aren't taking your savage boss, the devs are trying to answer a criticisms raiders levelled at them.

This however is all an aside to the fact your content amount has gone up, not down in a game that never offered much endgame content to begin with, that is something the casuals didn't change because it's always been that way, which loops back to my previous point.
You can't come into a place that's 90% one way, and expect the people who are there for the 90% who enjoy the game and love that 90% and tell them you don't like that 90% and they should give you some of their 90% because you only care about that 10% they don't and expect them to be OK with that. Especially when there are games that they avoid because they are like that and you could play those, if you want to stay with them they don't care, they only care because you're trying to change what they enjoy and no moving of the goal posts onto difficulty will change the fact that raiders have more now than they did during ARR, not less.
So casuals haven't changed the game and you're trying to change it back, you're just trying to change the game.

[Zabuza]

I already admitted the game has been made easier but that's again as I pointed out because SE wants a large amount of players to enjoy their game, locking them out of several parts of it doesn't help that goal, however the content spread has always been the same, in fact raiders have more now then the "glory days" of ARR, also your argument was lacking of end game content now that's not finding purchase its now about the difficulty overall.
This games goal is to get as many people in and enjoying content as they can so they get as many people paying as they can, they are doing a good job at this, you've given no reason other than "I want" that would convince them to change.
The game isn't dying, it's growing, the game isn't stale for the majority, the games practicability is a strength for the majority and Yoshi and the team are still open to trying new challenging content when they can, but not at the cost of everyone else.

If you want to change your argument to the game getting easier which has nothing to do with endgame content, that's fine but it kind of shows the weakness of the former argument if its so easily abandoned, but my argument would be they've simply made a greater divide between casuals and hardcore, locking story away was a poor move they admitted and so normal mode was added, raiders lost nothing from that it was simply an addition. However during Stoomrblood we were told the reason a dungeon was lost was so they could add new content so lets examine that.

Both parties lost a dungeon, raiders gained Ultimate, a piece of content next to no casuals will ever experience outside of twitch/youtube while the Casuals (this is debatable given its nature but for the sake of argument we'll say they gained it) gained Eukrea.
However, the raiders would have no issue going into Eukrea for their relic or because they enjoyed it, then there's BA another thing more geared towards raiders add to that the fact from this topic most raiders don't consider running ex dungeons as good content and during Stormblood raiders lost arguably nothing of value and gained 2 and a half things of value VS casuals who lost one thing of value and gained half a thing of value depending on where you stand some would feel nothing of value.

So all last expansion the raiders actually made out better than the casuals on the new content front in addition to all the usual content this is why to a lot of them it just feels like you're trying to change the game into something its not, you can argue the games skill level has been lowered but it's amount of high end game content has grown not shrunk. You use ARR coil not having a normal mode but you also didn't have ultimate back then or BA and as for losing savage exclusive bosses that wasn't what Yoshi said or why he said it, it was actually raiders who didn't like having to get past a "door boss" to get to the actual boss, just like it was raiders who didn't like running through trash to get to the challenging boss, the casuals aren't taking your savage boss, the devs are trying to answer a criticisms raiders levelled at them.

This however is all an aside to the fact your content amount has gone up, not down in a game that never offered much endgame content to begin with, that is something the casuals didn't change because it's always been that way, which loops back to my previous point.
You can't come into a place that's 90% one way, and expect the people who are there for the 90% who enjoy the game and love that 90% and tell them you don't like that 90% and they should give you some of their 90% because you only care about that 10% they don't and expect them to be OK with that. Especially when there are games that they avoid because they are like that and you could play those, if you want to stay with them they don't care, they only care because you're trying to change what they enjoy and no moving of the goal posts onto difficulty will change the fact that raiders have more now than they did during ARR, not less.
So casuals haven't changed the game and you're trying to change it back, you're just trying to change the game.

So, if it takes you longer to do content because of increased difficulty, that keeps you occupied for more time than if it is easier. Since Savage has been made easier, it now gets completed quicker, which means I unsub quicker. I have already explained in the previous pages how making more raiding content would attract more people. This game has already been changed into something else when the casuals protested to make everything braindead easy. CASUALS changed the difficulty which I would love to have changed back. In all this time since the game has been out, raiders have barely gained anything quantitywise, and lost a lot difficultywise. And you wanna cite just last expansion, do you really wanna make a comparison as to what casuals have gained since this game started, vs raiders? Keep in mind the list below is just off the top of my head, and not me taking the time to officially investigate and find out everything casuals have truly gained.

Casuals: Gold Saucer and all the mini games that come with it.
Lord of Verminion.
Glamour.
New races.
New hairstyles/colors.
New faces.
Houses and everything that comes with having one.
Gardening.
New crafting recipes/levels.
New achievements to chase in the achievement list.
New FATEs.
New emotes.
Mounts/Minions.
Hunts.
Deep Dungeon/HoH.
Retainer Ventures.
Squadrons.
Trust System.
Expeditions.

Raiders: Savage given an extra boss/checkpoint in the last fight.
Ultimate.

Before you say it as well, the above stuff in the casual category does NOT count as something added for raiders just because on a case by case basis, they may do one or a couple of those things. We're talking about difficult battle content.

[Tint]

Before you say it as well, the above stuff in the casual category does NOT count as something added for raiders just because on a case by case basis, they may do one or a couple of those things. We're talking about difficult battle content.

Yeah, but the stuff you listed for casuals doesn't count for all the casuals either, because they also don't do everything in that list.

You have to compare Gold Saucer against difficult battle content.
Then Lord of Verminion against difficult battle content (wait, why does it count extra?)
Glamour against difficult battle content...and so on.

You can't just throw everything together for casuals and then cherry pick for raiders.

My endgame for example is fishing and completing the fish log. Shall I compare ALL the content of this game against the tiny amount of big fish I will get not earlier than 5.3?


But what am I even arguing? I am not against new hardcore content, I just want to know what other content you (general you) want to have removed from the patch cycle to make room for that. And also wanted to point out that causals don't get that much more actually new PvE endgame content compared to hardcore players. But yeah, more old content gets recycled for casuals, so there is some busywork to do if you want to.

How can I not? I've had more than 15 instances in this thread of casuals bragging about how they have sooooo much to do. So, that being the case, it's interesting that you're so opposed to even throwing a bone to the people talking about how they are STARVING for content. I can't call it anything else but selfishness at this point. You changed the landscape of our game to be easier, and now you don't want to share a single thing with raiders. You don't want to allow them even the slightest bit of joy.

Yes, I have lots of things to do. Because I do lots of different things. If I would only be fishing I would get bored too.

[Tint]

[...] if I had 95% of the pie as you did, I would give up 5% to PvPers or casuals, gladly. In the current situation where raiders are already struggling for content? No, I would not. The difference is, as I stated, that casuals would still have more than enough to do if 5% was taken.

lol casuals have 95% of the content? We are still talking about "Endgame PvE content", right?

Casuals have normal mode raid, 24 man raid, expert roulette, deep dungeon and the relic quest.
Hardcores have savage raid, ultimate raid and extreme trials. I would say they have the deep dungeon too, actually the bigger part of heavon on high, but there is no gear progression so it doesn't count when I understood this discussion correct.

Yeah, casuals have more content. But they don't have 95% of it.

But I get it. You say you raiders have 5% of the content and all the other people have 95%. But these other people are not only PvE casuals, they are also crafters and gatherers, I would count fishing extra, people who like the gold saucer, people who like housing, people who like PvP...
Wich of these groups do you want to tell: "Sorry, we raiders are already getting content in every major patch, but since we want more of the pie you will not get anything this expansion"?

[LadyKairi]

Hardcores have savage raid, ultimate raid and extreme trials. I would say they have the deep dungeon too, actually the bigger part of heavon on high, but there is no gear progression so it doesn't count when I understood this discussion correct.

If the primals were on the same page as, say, Titan extreme, in his glory days I would agree with you, but no. The extreme primals we have are still very easy and don't even need a day to complete them. I would not say they are for the "hardcores" at all.