Lack of End Game Content

[Driavna]

So.. "look, now that you can faceroll this content it's all yours and it counts as us doing something for you!" Sounds.. a little unappealing.

You mean like normal mode, dungeons, 24m, normal primals or any quest/solo duty from the msq? Or like levelling all classes to max level or complete most of the achievement that are like: do this X amount of times? Or like those quest you can't even give the wrong answer and suffer a little prank from a faery?

As I said you don't need to change the formula, add more to it.

But I guess everything is reduced to: I don't want anything added to the game that I don't want to do even if does not impact me in any negative way at all because of reasons. However, I going to tell others to do stuff they don't want to do.

[Krotoan]

You mean like normal mode, dugeons, 24m, normal extreme primals or any quest/solo duty from the msq?.

As I said you don't need to change the formula, add more to it.

But I guess everything is reduce to: I don't want anything added to the game that I don't want to do even if does not impact in any negative way at all.

We've already established that it has a downside, even if it's small it's a downside. Normal mode is what we first get already, dungeons are released in "story" difficulties first, I don't know what a "normal" extreme primal is, and wouldn't quest and solo duties be normal mode?

You can't just add more to it without changing budget though, which is the problem. If there were no problems with just growing the content without shuffling resources then yeah, why wouldn't we be ok with this? But they've shown time and time again that for something to be done, other things must suffer. Should that change? ... would be nice, but it hasn't for 6 years, it's kinda foolish to think that SE is going to change positions on what has been shown to be a profitable and consistent flow especially now that they're showing strain just getting an expansion out to the same standards they've always had.

Please don't confuse this with my personal stance ( I like a reasonably challenging bit of content every once in a while and also go back and consume stuff once it's been toned down a bit) , I'm just trying to reason out why anyone would ever want or support something that detracted from their own personal priority and enjoyment. It just makes sense that the large, casual playerbase FFXIV has wouldn't support shifting ANY resources to increasing bleeding edge extreme content. Why would they?

[Driavna]

Was a typo and you knew it but it's not like it matters. Also, SB gained more than it lost with the only non-casual friendly content being Ultimate.

[Krotoan]

Was a typo and you knew it but is not like it matters.

.. little aggressive there. I was honestly confused so that's why I said something. If you want I'll go back and edit my message?

[BlitzAceRush]

Even if I accepted your premise, would that piece being sacrificed even hurt the casual population much if they are drowning in content? And basically what you're telling me is to not want anything more for this game and just accept second-class status here or leave...I mean, I guess that's great for you since you already have what you want.

Well, yes, it would. Losing that 24 man would impact so many more people than not having mythic+ would, again you're asking the many to be willing to give up something they want and expect from a game the love it is for for a few that openly admit the game isn't designed for them but could be redesigned for them.

You're not second class and you're not somewhere you're not wanted though you like to be dramatic, you've willingly come to a game that is not designed to give you want you want, admit it likely couldn't with out removing other content or slowing the patch cycle and despite all this saying any sacrifice is fine because the game that isn't designed for me should alter itself for me, even though the majority who are here are here because it's the way it is now.

Again you're not asking for a better for the game, you're trying to redesign it into something its not and not trying to be, not because it would make the game better, but because it would make it better for you.

Seeing as your argument is those with more should sacrifice for those with less, even when it makes little to no sense, the PVP guys have less than you, if the only person who could design more PVP content was also the lead designer on raids, as you've 5% to their 2% wouldn't you mind losing something for them? After all you've got more than them, isn't that loss worth letting them find a home here too?

[Zabuza]

Well, yes, it would. Losing that 24 man would impact so many more people than not having mythic+ would, again you're asking the many to be willing to give up something they want and expect from a game the love it is for for a few that openly admit the game isn't designed for them but could be redesigned for them.

You're not second class and you're not somewhere you're not wanted though you like to be dramatic, you've willingly come to a game that is not designed to give you want you want, admit it likely couldn't with out removing other content or slowing the patch cycle and despite all this saying any sacrifice is fine because the game that isn't designed for me should alter itself for me, even though the majority who are here are here because it's the way it is now.

Again you're not asking for a better for the game, you're trying to redesign it into something its not and not trying to be, not because it would make the game better, but because it would make it better for you.

Seeing as your argument is those with more should sacrifice for those with less, even when it makes little to no sense, the PVP guys have less than you, if the only person who could design more PVP content was also the lead designer on raids, as you've 5% to their 2% wouldn't you mind losing something for them? After all you've got more than them, isn't that loss worth letting them find a home here too?

Interestingly enough, the casuals gradually changed this game to become easier and easier. So, you're all the ones who changed it to be more casual to begin with. And, why should raiders, who have the a super small slice of the pie compared to you, give up content for PvPers, when you have 95% of the pie? Do you not understand that you'd still be drowning in content if you lost even 5% of what you had, whereas raiders are already struggling for content? It's not the same situation at all. Some triple triad cards not created, some GATEs/achievements left out in exchange for Mythic+ or some other type of endgame content?

If Raiders were 95% of this game, for sure I wouldn't mind giving something up to help PvPers or casuals out, and I mean that. Because I want everyone to have fun in this game, however difficult that may be. If the roles were reversed, I would love for them to create content that made it feel like you had a home here too, if I'd still have more than enough content to do, like you guys would if they directed 5% of their resources to endgame.

[linay]

There's a lot of assumptions in this post along with one or two inaccuracies.

The assumptions are based on what people have said in this thread.

The idea that people who want more end game content haven't enjoyed the majority of the content is an assumption. There are people who've been around since 2.0 or before who want more end game content. Also if people didn't enjoy the majority of the game then chances are they won't still be playing the game, so let's discuss content.

The problem is that everyone has the same access to all content, yet some people can enjoy the game throughout each expansion while some cannot. Regardless if this latter group have enjoyed the content, there is obviously still a difference if they say they enjoyed the content compared to the people who continues to enjoy the content that they continue to pay the monthly subscription without taking a break.

Saying a person hasn't done anywhere near all the content because they have a third of the jobs leveled to 80 is inaccurate

I don't think I said this so this point is moot for me. Regardless, for those people who do the same content with different jobs, it still means they're getting more mileage out of that content.

What's being asked for is for the game to present more content at the end of the game. That doesn't mean these people don't like FFXIV, it doesn't mean these people have played hardly any of the game, all you can tell by this is these people would like more max level content.

And that's the point, regardless that some people just want a certain type of content, this game is made with different types of content and with the idea of people being able to redo those same content possibly through different jobs (maybe even different alt characters, oh the horror! j/k, maybe). The fact remains that there are people who can keep themselves busy with the content as is, and development would reflect that, to go back to the point that they're all related.

I didn't question people's love for the game, but again, people have said that they're "forced" to make the decision to unsubscribe for parts of the expansion. I'm just saying that if the developer is ok with that, don't expect any change on this front unless something forces them to take a look at their development cycle. (Earlier in this thread, I suggested that maybe if enough people quit entirely, then the game might change for them, because so far, unsubscribing temporarily and coming back each expansion fits with the developer's intention it would seem.)

[Hawklaser]

Again you're not asking for a better for the game, you're trying to redesign it into something its not and not trying to be, not because it would make the game better, but because it would make it better for you.

Seeing as your argument is those with more should sacrifice for those with less, even when it makes little to no sense, the PVP guys have less than you, if the only person who could design more PVP content was also the lead designer on raids, as you've 5% to their 2% wouldn't you mind losing something for them? After all you've got more than them, isn't that loss worth letting them find a home here too?

Lets see, on the design front. RPGs as a general rule of thumb trend toward big epic adventures. Accomplished by the use of the story narative and challenge. FFXIV does a great job on the narative side, but has been floundering on the challenge side. ARR near launch had a better overall balance to this. So we're trying to not better the game by pointing out the adventures don't feel as epic as they used to, by asking for some of the challenge that made them feel epic to be added back in? To me nothing of late has had the feel of challenge one would expect of a final or post game dungeon in a traditional RPG. While I didn't get to experience Coil in its glory days, I was working towards it, its also a bit funny that they won't make more stuff like Castrum Meridium and Praetoreum as those actually felt like final dungeons when done in the ilvl 55-65 gear had at the time. The only reason they got so much hate at the time was those running them for the umpteenth time for tomestones didn't want to wait for people doing the story to enjoy the story. That was it. Nothing about difficulty or length, just story vs tomestone grind. Would be a bit silly if thats one of the big culprits as to why we don't have much for challenging content now wouldn't it? As I really enjoyed Praetoreum back in ARR, probably still would if power creep hadn't trivialized it to just a mini movie.

On the would I give up the part of 5% slice of raiding content so pvpers with their 2% slice could get better and more frequent patches? Yes. Would probably try and see if combined resources would work best first and do like a 7% raid, raid, pvp cycles, but if the only solution is closer to a 50/50 split so be it.

[MonteCristo]

Interestingly enough, the casuals gradually changed this game to become easier and easier. So, you're all the ones who changed it to be more casual to begin with. And, why should raiders, who have the a super small slice of the pie compared to you, give up content for PvPers, when you have 95% of the pie? Do you not understand that you'd still be drowning in content if you lost even 5% of what you had, whereas raiders are already struggling for content? It's not the same situation at all. Some triple triad cards not created, some GATEs/achievements left out in exchange for Mythic+ or some other type of endgame content?

If Raiders were 95% of this game, for sure I wouldn't mind giving something up to help PvPers or casuals out, and I mean that. Because I want everyone to have fun in this game, however difficult that may be. If the roles were reversed, I would love for them to create content that made it feel like you had a home here too, if I'd still have more than enough content to do, like you guys would if they directed 5% of their resources to endgame.

Very well spoken

[BlitzAceRush]

Snip.

Casuals didn't change the game, this game has been pretty much running the same cycle with while trying something new here and there since ARR, has it been made easier? Yes, in some aspects Coil was basically at savage difficulty with no normal mode, and some instances here and there have been nerffed as time went on, however lets not pretend you've had a larger slice of this pie, in fact raiders have gained some more content like Ultimate and BA as time has gone on.
You also avoided the point of my question, you're whole argument which you said again is Casuals have more, raiders have less, give us some of your stuff, it won't hurt you as much as it would benefit us. That is the exact situation I gave you, PVP'ers have less, you have more, given staff with the right talents are sighted by Yoshi as a reason they can't do everything, only the person who dose raids could give to the PVP'er, so won't you benefit them more than you'll be hurt? You'll still have more than them, they'll just get a little more to enjoy.

Snip.

Eh, this is more subjective I don't feel something needs to be hard to feel like an epic adventure I've found Shadowbringers and the post dungeons very epic and there no more difficult than any that came before, the story and setting are what make that for me. As for floundering, you can argue it's lacking in difficulty but it's not hurt for it. Most people just enjoy moving through the story, seeing the sights and taking in the atmosphere.
As for why they won't make another Castrum Meridium and Praetoreum, its because they were a design mess, MMO's expect you to run their content over and over and those were perfect for a single player game, terrible for an MMO and I disagree with the challenge part, people cheeses and breezed through them even back then it took more work and the mobs didn't melt instantly like they do today but it was no more challenging then than now just longer, they've always been cut scenes masquerading as dungeons save for the trials at the end of Praetoreum and the first phase of Castrum Meridium, those did give some people some trouble.

That's very noble that you would and honestly I wouldn't be against raiders getting more myself, my point is over the 6 years they have been given more, Ultimate and BA wouldn't be here otherwise and Yoshi has been clear like in the mythic+ question with the staff he can get his hands on, with the resources he has and trying to keep to the scheduled they work on he has to prioritises and he's going to do it based on numbers, so few were clearing the raids they lowered their difficulty but then came Ultimate to composite for those who really wanna push it. BA was a success and sits somewhere in the middle and they'd like to do something with that. Challenging content dose get made as dose content with PVP but it's made to reflect the numbers.