Lack of End Game Content

[Klb600]

If you feel I misinterpreted you, fine, but even with this statement you are incorrect.

They've made the focus be entirely the gear treadmill, and they set out the path that a person should take to get that gear.

Lol is this a joke? Please enlighten me how the gear treadmill isn't anymore prevalent here? What you are now arguing is which is more grindy within the End Game Hardcore Ecosystem.
Whether you enjoy the side content of WoW or not, they still exist just like they do in FFXIV. WoW has always been a Raid centric game and that's what most of the players look too in terms of progression. Saying that the developers "are much more controlling and manipulative with its players", when End game raid progression is what most WoW players look for and actively partake in, is disingenuous.

you have many many many people doing things, that they don't enjoy, just for the eventual carrot down the road.

You mean Like how many people are running the same dungeons over and over again just, farming the same recycled tomes just too have relevant gear, because FFXIV has a system where the top gear is made irrelevant every 2-3 months? You think I do duty roulettes for fun? No I do it in order to optimize my time Vs reward. And by no means am I claiming that I don't fully enjoy FFXIV, but it has its aspects of "things you will have to do even if you don't enjoy"

Recently, for example, they made something that is valuable for PvE, be something you get from PvP.

Another important aspect of WoWs end game is PvP. Doesn't sound too ludicrous too make one append the other. Chocobo racing isn't an integral part of the endgame progression...Irrelevant example

On top of that, they put in so many different timers and time-gate various things, designed to make logging in every day for 1-2 hours and doing very specific things be the most optimal way to play. So, no one is really playing the game, they are just egg timing it (go in, do x, log out), next day (go in, do x, log out), and so on.


You mean like that very thing they do in FFXIV for progression?

Professions are virtually worthless because they ensure people are unable to craft anything too good for raiding as then players could avoid some things.

Again the very same thing they do in this game....

Player agency itself has been completely removed to ensure time and effort won't lead to a player having an advantage over others.

And Yet another thing they do in this very game....

For all these reasons, the themepark mentality is much stronger in FF14.

Yeah no it isn't, you don't get too just define your own benchmark and definition for what is "much more Theme park" and roll with it. The available rides in WOW are there just like they are for FFXIV, however you choose to measure how "enjoyable" these rides are is besides the point. They are however still there.

[Forever_Learning]

[B]
Yeah no it isn't, you don't get too just define your own benchmark and definition for what is "much more Theme park" and roll with it. The available rides in WOW are there just like they are for FFXIV, however you choose to measure how "enjoyable" these rides are is besides the point. They are however still there.

-The gear treadmill is broken, not simply because it is more grindy - because the issue isn't the grind but the level of RNG. Preach has a video about it, and and a more recent one discussing how players need to do content like world quests, which is normally considered casual content, in order to get the best gear in the game. Preach would prefer all raid gear largely come from raids, and it doesn't, instead, it comes from different sources which leads raiders to do that content for the gear rewards, even though they dislike video. I point out his videos so people reading this thread understand I"m stating the general opinion of things as opposed to just my own opinion of things.

Like I said, a good example is making people who normally do PvE need to do PvP for great rewards, or vice-versa. Most people do one or the other, not both, and are continuously frustrated needing to do the content for the reward, because they don't normally do it. If you don't want my word on it, go see videos by hazelnutty where she discusses the frustration. People complained so much the developers even had to address in their video blog to the WoW players.

Also, no, FF14 has no where the amount of time-gating like WoW, nor the constant amount of RNG put in to slow you down. In FF14, you can actually calculate when you will be receiving a reward, what the reward will be, and there is some correlation between what you are doing and the reward received. Because there is so much RNG, it actually forces the player do things far more often than they would in FF14. Some would cheer that "more content", but in reality people are just annoyed because it's more a sense of relief when they finally get it than joy. Also, at least the egg timing for gear in FF14 is on a weekly rotation, so in theory you have seven days to get it done. In WoW, because of things like the artificat weapon and the more recent neck, the most efficient was logging in every day for an hour, to do the exact same thing. Considering catch-ups are usually every six months to a year, that's a lot of time to be doing the same boring world quests every day.

BTW, I actually do enjoy doing the same dungeons every day in FF14 because I find them fun as you actually do have to follow mechanics, even if they are easy to do. WoW dungeons, and frankly any content outside Mythic Raiding and Mythic + is so brain dead easy it might as well be chocobo racing because frankly, chocobo racing is more challenging than the standard WoW dungeon or LFR. FF14 has MSQ raid, but at least it's not the entire game!

-I"m also going to reinforce what I said about professions. It's only recently that professions are so useless in WoW. Previously, you could craft good quality gear, for many slots, and if wasn't gear, it was gems, enchants, and potions. Potions still sell, nothing else does, and the gear that can be crafted is started gear. It was a CHANGE made, and it was made IMO (but others agree) to effectively remove a way for players to obtain gear, and instead keep them going for gear highly dependent on RNG that will 'in theory' keep them playing longer.

-Player agency means being able to set out goals and going after them. I can do that in FF14 because of the currency system. In WoW, there is NO currency system. None. PvP used to have vendors, they are gone . . . because they said players could't find them. Valor gear - gone. Again, because doing so would mean you could have control over when you get certain pieces of gear. The vendor for gear that does exist, you can trade in gear you've obtained for a CHANCE to get gear you want. If you want to actually choose the gear from that vendor, the amount of turn in required will take MONTHS.

WoW has developers that have implemented mobile game tactics in place of an MMO. See Preach's videos, or Asmongolds, people who clearly know WoW well and play the game. What I've expressed here, are the same sentiments they express. They actively force you to play a certain way. I said WoW no longer feels like a theme park - Asmongold would say it"s not even an MMO, it's a casino for gear.

[Klb600]

snip

Well I am not going to defend that but nonetheless that does not change my stance on "how much of a theme park" That makes one or another, is Disney land more of a theme park then 6 flags because Some rides are more to your liking or certain rides exist in one and not the other? We can sit here and argue all day about it but then it just becomes semantics.

So there are some things you had to do too enjoy other things? What of it? FFXIV contains it's own form of this, You know what its called? Story Gating. I would like too enjoy the game with new friends but nope, here is this long winded series of quest that you have too play for hours just to enjoy 1 dungeon with your friend until the next series of long winded quest. choice and freedom, right out the window..

Again I never argued "which is more grindy or how enjoyable the grind is too another." But ok in FFXIV's case they give you the illusions of constantly gaining rewards in the form of gear, but tell me this, What is the point when the tight gear treadmill will just make it irrelevant? What is the point when one gear from another is decided entirely by X amount of numbers? Oh I just gained enough of X amount of generic currency for this new piece of gear where the only difference is a higher number. Then oh 2 months later that gear is made irrelevant, a new form of currency is introduced, new gear with +X stats Is here and the treadmill sprint continues. FFXIV is mostly instant gratification at this point.

That’s fine that you find it enjoyable…But I don’t and there are probably others who don’t. Yeah follow what mechanics? Pull wall to wall trash, tank and spank bosses where you follow some scripted dance routine for the hundredth time? The dungeons are enjoyable the first time around but completely lose their charm after the 2nd run. Most of the time I'm zoned out or watching YouTube as I do these dungeons

The market in this game is 99% glamour, and Vanity pieces for your Housing. what you consider goals may not be to others and vice versa. What Agency do I have in FFXIV when the only way I have to gain high level gear Is Savage(4 scripted bosses) or the same 2 trials I have beaten for the thousandth time? Listen I understand You ohh soo love this game, but to tell me I have Agency in this game over another is straight up duplicate. When I want to progress by doing content X and I am told that If I do content X over content Y I gain nothing but a vanity piece then you have robbed me of all agency.

I am not interested in enlightening myself on how "grindy" WoW is and in no way doubt the validity of your claims about how the quality of the game has gotten, but non the less a Theme park MMO is a Theme park MMO however you look at it.

[Coatl]

WoW has developers that have implemented mobile game tactics in place of an MMO. See Preach's videos, or Asmongolds, people who clearly know WoW well and play the game. What I've expressed here, are the same sentiments they express. They actively force you to play a certain way. I said WoW no longer feels like a theme park - Asmongold would say it"s not even an MMO, it's a casino for gear.

You enforce a lot of your points by referencing big wow figureheads such as Asmongold or hazelnutty out of context. WoW giving you OPTIONS for ways to gear yourself and progress your character is a GOOD thing. You can enjoy things like PVP or world quests(fate equivalents) while also receiving some decent gear on the side. That's not what people dislike about BFA. What they dislike is that these options have a chance to titanforge, essentially winning the lotto and turning that throwaway piece of gear into something potentially better than anything you'd get from the most difficult or competitive content available of that patch cycle. You can imagine that doesn't sit well with the more hardcore playerbase.

But the principle that anything you put time into should give something back is not a bad one, just executed very poorly by blizzard. I would PVP more on 14 if it gave me a modicum of a reward, and didn't feel like I was doing it just for the sake of doing it.

[KatenKyokotsu]

In my own personal opinion, it is not that ffxiv lack of end game content or any other contents. It lacks contents not engaging enough to keep the players interested. It keeps using the same old system xpac after xpac. Nothing's changed. Just adding a bit of new stuffs here and there.

PvP? There are better pvp system out there in other mmos.
Open world content? Still the same with the above mentioned imo.
There's still more but I believe a lot are already mentioned in this thread alone.

Sure if you ask me why stay then why not move on to other games. I stay because of the social aspect and because of the irl fc mates I met through ffxiv. I think in the end it all depends on the player. What the player wants to strive for.

[Forever_Learning]

You enforce a lot of your points by referencing big wow figureheads such as Asmongold or hazelnutty out of context. WoW giving you OPTIONS for ways to gear yourself and progress your character is a GOOD thing. You can enjoy things like PVP or world quests(fate equivalents) while also receiving some decent gear on the side. That's not what people dislike about BFA. What they dislike is that these options have a chance to titanforge, essentially winning the lotto and turning that throwaway piece of gear into something potentially better than anything you'd get from the most difficult or competitive content available of that patch cycle. You can imagine that doesn't sit well with the more hardcore playerbase.

But the principle that anything you put time into should give something back is not a bad one, just executed very poorly by blizzard. I would PVP more on 14 if it gave me a modicum of a reward, and didn't feel like I was doing it just for the sake of doing it.

It isn't optional if you want BiS.

It isn't decendent side gear, it is gear that is better than what can be obtained from the raid.

Imagine some of your best gear coming from beat tribes rather than savage; then imagine being a raider who dislikes beat tribe dailies.

Yes, titanforging is hated, but that's actually a separate issue to making non-raid content be required for some of the best raid gear.