Lack of End Game Content

[Forever_Learning]

End game isn't set by the players. You make it sound like this is a sandbox of some sort, yes there are a wide variety of side activities to partake in(which btw exist in many MMO's) but they are not set by players nor are they related to the endgame progression that is referred to by most MMO players.

Actually, your definition is incorrect and I think you don't understand the difference between themepark and sandbox.

I think you maybe understand sandbox, where there is no clear path, and it's largely just an interaction between players in a particular setting (think EVE)

But Themepark is called themepark because there are a WIDE VARIETY of activities to do, like a themepark!

-you can ride the rollercoasters
-you can play the games
-you can see the shows
-you can go eat fancy food

Like Disneyland, it has different areas meant to cater to different tastes.

Thus, it makes no sense to tell people they are doing something wrong when they choose an area of the game to focus on when they find it enjoyable.

You are doing the equivalent of telling someone only the roller coasters matter at a theme park, the rest of the park is worthless.

That may be your opinion, but the Themepark isn't set up that way - it sets up to cater to a wide variety of tastes and interests.

Raids represents one area of the themepark, and if you want more raids, say you want more raids, but saying it means there's no end game is disingenuous.

[Nixxe]

My apologies, didn't mean to come off as self righteous. To me it just is very surprising because I have so many other things that I need/want to do. I clearly stated More than 15 hours Some weeks when I have more than 20 hours a week clocked. But majority of the time I have many other recreational or things I want to do with my family or other things I want to accomplish. So for you to assume that gaming is a persons only recreational time needs to take a step back from this discussion.

But for fun lets just break down what many would asume is an average adult life.

40-50 hours a week for work. 1 hour drive time to and from 5 days a week. = 45=55 hours
Additional 6-8 hours of sleep a night = 42 - 56 hours

87-112 hours used so far.

We all have different eating habits but for funsies lets just say 15 -45 mins per meal not including snacks possibly 3 rimes a day = 45m - 2.25 hours roughly. 5.25 - 15.75 hours

And for the sake of argument lets assume we all bathe 30 mins a day.

So we are what? 96-130 hours.

You have 38-72 hours in your week to do whatever one wants. I find I like spending time with my wife watching what ever show she seems to enjoy at the moment say 2 hours here and there. I get some solid exercise walking my dog at least an hour a day. I like to make sure my House is clean so I dedicate at least 2 or more hours to clean up on the weekend. perhaps some friends wants to hang out a bit that can easily last up to 4 hours. Some times things like grocery shopping and getting "errands" done can take 3 hours in your week. I also have been getting into Light novels lately so there is about 3 hours per book there.

Maybe its just a me things but I find Not neglecting your family during your recreational time is apart of your adult responsibilities. And good grief can your family eat up whatever free time you have, but I wouldn't give it up for the world. So yes it is a struggle for me to comprehend that there are those out there that can sink as much time into the game as they would a full time job.

I enjoyed the part where you managed to label your recreational activities "adult responsibilities." It's little wonder that you're so baffled that anyone has as much free time as they do while being a productive member of society when you privilege the manner in which you spend your own free time in such a way.

[Zabuza]

I'm baffled at some of the replies in here. I get the impression a lot of you just dislike raiders, full stop.

Reprimanding us for wanting more content for us to do, as if there is something wrong with that.

Even the existing raid, Eden, still has no voice acting and what's more, they pitted us against primals we fought 3, 4 times? I am supposed to be satisfied with that? Knowing that we'll likely have to face 4 other primals we've fought before, making hhalf of the entire 12 trial fights in Eden enemies I've fought before. Hurray? They also had no excuse to not include voice acting in at least parts of this raid. I've heard it in dungeons, and they certainly are not short on money at this point.

Basically what I'm hearing is 'be quiet raiders, be grateful that you get your 4 trial fights every 6 months, and if you get your 5th, consider yourself blessed.' You know how long those 4 fights last before you get fully geared? 2 months out of those 6 at best, unless you count Ultimate. And I raid with pugs! Imagine how it is for the top statics in this game!

Coil was somewhat of an actual raid, because it had an environment you walked through, trash to kill. Now you just get teleported right into the square arena. Circles and squares, nothing else. They could reimplement the actual raid feel, and have trash dropping crafting materials to make it worth it. I just wonder, does anyone want a challenge anymore in their game? Adventure? Or is this too much to ask? I have had to watch even the Savage Modes get easier, and people complaining that certain fights outside of Savage are too challenging. So where am I, and people like me, supposed to get our plethora of challenging content? Don't say WoW. I've played WoW in the past. I don't want to play WoW. Final Fantasy has always been the franchise I am passionate about. So me wanting at least one other form of challenging content besides the Savage/Ultimate trial fights is wrong?

I guess I'm somewhat jaded regarding this, since I remember always having an endgame activity to do in FFXI, always a challenge to be had. I realize that was due to the nature of horizontal progression, but I do feel Square Enix is making enough money to create something else to entertain raiders.

I don't ask for SE to keep glamour options limited even though I have no interest in it, so why do many people get hostile towards raiders for wanting something more?

[Arthrun]

Actually, your definition is incorrect and I think you don't understand the difference between themepark and sandbox.

I think you maybe understand sandbox, where there is no clear path, and it's largely just an interaction between players in a particular setting (think EVE)

But Themepark is called themepark because there are a WIDE VARIETY of activities to do, like a themepark!

-you can ride the rollercoasters
-you can play the games
-you can see the shows
-you can go eat fancy food

Like Disneyland, it has different areas meant to cater to different tastes.

Thus, it makes no sense to tell people they are doing something wrong when they choose an area of the game to focus on when they find it enjoyable.

You are doing the equivalent of telling someone only the roller coasters matter at a theme park, the rest of the park is worthless.

That may be your opinion, but the Themepark isn't set up that way - it sets up to cater to a wide variety of tastes and interests.

Raids represents one area of the themepark, and if you want more raids, say you want more raids, but saying it means there's no end game is disingenuous.

Quoting because I like this perception of how to view the issue. Quite honestly it fits of what FFXIV is.

When I think of Retail WoW with this analogy, the issue i see with BFA there is a TON of activities but the roller coaster (raids) Look pretty but just don't seem as well built with only 1 or 2 good loops, The shows (Story) seems like they didn't have time to write a proper script for them. A lot of food has been taken off the menus that people loved. (Class design). Warfronts just seem like theme park tour guides don't feel a real need to do them more than once. Island expeditions just seems like a tiny arcade to win tickets for that stuffed bear on the wall. PVP is that ring toss game that you come across but don't get to chose which toy you win.

Granted you can make the argument that FFXIV just shoved its theme park budget in other areas than what Wow did, but the shows (story) is utterly fantastic. There is a large variety of quality food. (class design.) even though the cook time can seem longer than everywhere else (2.5 GCD.) While they have only a few roller coasters you can see the quality that is put into every twist and turns. (raids).

I could try to list more but I think I want to go home now and actually get online to play the dang game lol.

[Forever_Learning]

I'm baffled at some of the replies in here. I get the impression a lot of you just dislike raiders, full stop.

Reprimanding us for wanting more content for us to do, as if there is something wrong with that.

Even the existing raid, Eden, still has no voice acting and what's more, they pitted us against primals we fought 3, 4 times? I am supposed to be satisfied with that? Knowing that we'll likely have to face 4 other primals we've fought before, making hhalf of the entire 12 trial fights in Eden enemies I've fought before. Hurray? They also had no excuse to not include voice acting in at least parts of this raid. I've heard it in dungeons, and they certainly are not short on money at this point.

Basically what I'm hearing is 'be quiet raiders, be grateful that you get your 4 trial fights every 6 months, and if you get your 5th, consider yourself blessed.' You know how long those 4 fights last before you get fully geared? 2 months out of those 6 at best, unless you count Ultimate. And I raid with pugs! Imagine how it is for the top statics in this game!

Coil was somewhat of an actual raid, because it had an environment you walked through, trash to kill. Now you just get teleported right into the square arena. Circles and squares, nothing else. They could reimplement the actual raid feel, and have trash dropping crafting materials to make it worth it. I just wonder, does anyone want a challenge anymore in their game? Adventure? Or is this too much to ask? I have had to watch even the Savage Modes get easier, and people complaining that certain fights outside of Savage are too challenging. So where am I, and people like me, supposed to get our plethora of challenging content? Don't say WoW. I've played WoW in the past. I don't want to play WoW. Final Fantasy has always been the franchise I am passionate about. So me wanting at least one other form of challenging content besides the Savage/Ultimate trial fights is wrong?

I guess I'm somewhat jaded regarding this, since I remember always having an endgame activity to do in FFXI, always a challenge to be had. I realize that was due to the nature of horizontal progression, but I do feel Square Enix is making enough money to create something else to entertain raiders.

I don't ask for SE to keep glamour options limited even though I have no interest in it, so why do many people get hostile towards raiders for wanting something more?

No, I think you misunderstand.

The title of the thread is 'Lack of End Game Content', but the rationale was based only on the size of the raid. Furthermore, there was the argument that only raids count as end game. I think if the thread was 'Eden could have used more bosses', the reaction would have been quite different.

[yukiiyuki]

As someone who playing for 5 years in a row, I tired seeing same patch formula every year, game have lack of pve content, even Yoshi P acknowledge it. Even after beating savages, which take like 2 days or so, people will farm all same 4 bosses until big dungeon for 24 casuals drop out, after that 3 more months of wait for 4 more engaging bosses. White knighting on forum is cancer, game needs more actual engaging raids, that take more than 40 min to clear them, we don't need big dungeons aka alliance raids, raids supposed to be something big and scary, something that makes you proud to go there and clear it, we don't have it and never will, if people try to shut us up. Yeah, sniffing Chocobo is content as well, but normal people want normal and various pve content, since pvp is mistake in this game.

[Losara]

Coil was somewhat of an actual raid, because it had an environment you walked through, trash to kill. Now you just get teleported right into the square arena. Circles and squares, nothing else. They could re-implement the actual raid feel, and have trash dropping crafting materials to make it worth it.

This is something I have wondered about for a bit. Is it actually a raid if you are just teleported straight to the final boss?

I think it would be a trial instead since there is only the boss to fight and no actual dungeon to explore and trash mobs to defeat and collect loot from.

Think most of us don't have anything against raiders, though compared to casuals, raiders have more content to do than casual players simply because they participate in the content whereas casuals do not for various reasons.

SE doesn't want to introduce a grind fest this early in the expansion, we'll likely get more things to keep people busy in later patches so enjoy the quiet while it lasts is what I reckon.

[sauc]

I don't find the casual content makes up for the lack of endgame. I'll use wow as an example since I never played gw2 or eso so I can't speak for them and people consider them the ''big 4'' They say their team is as large and endgame is not the focus, however I see just as much if not less casual content in here.

If reputation grinds for fun little rewards is what you like wow has far FAR more, other then the last 2 expansions they aren;t gated either you can grind it as hard as you want. Current ones are gated to how much you can get a day like every single beast tribe.

Darkmoon faire is basically the equivalent of gold saucer. Gold saucer got like 1 hairstyle added to it this expansion and nothing else? Not saying darkmoon faire is any better but I do remember it having a world boss at some point that could drop a mount, a meme rabbit or something. Can't speak for it now but when I did do it it seemed to be updated more often than gold saucer ever did. Either way it's there in both games and can hold your attention about as long. I'll give gold saucer that it's atleast permanent instead of showing up every 2 weeks but I highly doubt people just love doing the same 3 gates constantly and consider that their content. It's empty as hell anytime there's not an event going.

mini pets, wow has entire instanced content dedicated to pet battles as well as quest lines. You can just go out in the world and keep capturing new ones like a pokemon game and by now there has to be over a thousand. vermillion is weak in comparison.

glamour and transmog is basically the same thing, but wow has a collection tab where if you find an item once it's there forever even if you throw it away. It;s saved to your entire account so even your other alts have the look saved. If you don't have an item it will tell you where it is what it looks like what other versions (recolors) of it exist and also where to find them. There's no inventory space or glamour dressers or any of that mess it's all stored the same way mini pets and mounts in this game are. They keep using technical limitations as a reason here, if it's such a popular thing in this game as people claim maybe they should consider redoing it instead of just adding a little more space as bandaid.

Story, well war campaign is basically msq, but wow has an insane amount of voice acting in far more languages as well. They both take the same amount of time to complete and are given to you in increments, usually patches like the msq.

Lore, wow has worse writing like it's trying to make sure even a dumb kid can understand it but the lore itself absolutely wrecks ffxiv. We barely know anything about races here and all their raid stories (including alliance raids) is partly robbed from their other games that aren't even in the same universe. Wow is one big story from the days of WC1 in like 1993 to now.

Making alts is usually much more bearable in wow even in bfa. The azerite neck levels quickly enough that you're never locked out of azerite gear buffs now. And in the earlier expansions you can keep it fresh by doing zones you've never done since the world is way bigger and not railroaded, you can go to like 4 different areas once you hit level 35 or whatever same goes with 40 and 50 etc. Your mounts pets achievements everything are account stored not per character so at this point its not much different then levleing multiple classes on the same guy like this game has .FFXIv MSQ will make you do fetch quests endlessly the same way you've alreaady done it on your main with a story you already did. Leveling another class on the same character is doing potd til your eyes bleed.

I can't speak for rp a whole lot cause I don't do it but wow has dedicated rp servers with enforced naming rules and public chat rules (no Xxsephiroth69xx) and a generally bigger playerbase participating in it from what I hear. Not sure how hard they enforce those rules but either way rping is definitely bigger and more supported in wow.

Casual pvp is far far better in wow. pvp in general is just a thousand times better. There's also world pvp. Netcode won't allow pvp to ever flourish here even if they pour their hearts and soul into it

Wow will sometimes add hard solo content like the mage tower in legion to get exclusive glamours unavailable anywhere else. There's no equivalent to that in ff.

There's alot more gearing venues, even though I admit forging shouldn't exist you can get gear from justdoing world quests or mythic dungeons or raids or crafting or battlegrounds or arenas if you want. The gear is far more interesting as well with its on use effects and chances on hit

So really all you can say that ffxiv has on it in ''casual content'' is like crafting and housing? Is the reason we don't have like 8 bosses a tier because they made new housing wards once in an expansion?Or added 2 recipe books that likely has the same look as already existing gear? willing to bet way more people raid atleast normals then there are people with houses. I mean there's a limited supply of them so there literally can't be that many people doing it.

As for crafting, if you're bothering making anything worthwhile I would argue that it's anything but casual. Some of the mats required for crafting are a huge grind and usually require you to be omnicrafter (I've gotten every single one from 1 to 70 and have all master recipes so I'm not talking out of my ass) so you can make some of the items required to make whatever it is you're making.

Most of the reasons I see are still paying off the debt of 1.0 (did they really put that much in it to still be reeling from it 6 years later?) Using most of it's money to fund other projects and what I think is the most likely, very inefficient working methods due to horrid code and engine limitations. You can feel that last one with the general '' clunkiness'' of the game. (can't talk while mounted can't interact with objects til you're out of combat stance loading screens everywhere terrible netcode making pvp unplayable etc).

I haven't been subbed to wow since like september and haven't seen anything past uldir so I'm not shilling for them, they generally piss me off with their raids coming out 1 month after the patch in order to get another month sub out of you (even though its 100% complete and ready to come out) 6 month mount deals to meet quarterly report and taking away stuff off their cash shop as 'GOING AWAY DEALS BUY NOW' to give a false sense of urgency to get people to panic buy stuff when we all know it's going to return later, I mean it's a virtual item it literally can't go out of stock.

tldr i think not enough money is going back into the game as well as inefficient work due to poor coding and a terrible engine from being built on the corpse of another game is the real reason for such small patches in general that have the same amount of casual content than other games if not less while sacrificing their endgame regardless for it.

[Zabuza]

(ran out of space in the previous post and im too stupid to know if theres a way to post bigger so CONTINUED)
Lore, wow has worse writing like it's trying to make sure even a dumb kid can understand it but the lore itself absolutely wrecks ffxiv. We barely know anything about races here and all their raid stories (including alliance raids) is partly robbed from their other games that aren't even in the same universe. Wow is one big story from the days of WC1 in like 1993 to now.

Making alts is usually much more bearable in wow even in bfa. The azerite neck levels quickly enough that you're never locked out of azerite gear buffs now. And in the earlier expansions you can keep it fresh by doing zones you've never done since the world is way bigger and not railroaded, you can go to like 4 different areas once you hit level 35 or whatever same goes with 40 and 50 etc. FFXIv MSQ will make you do fetch quests endlessly the same way you've alreaady done it on your main with a story you already did. Leveling another class on the same character is doing potd til your eyes bleed.

I can't speak for rp a whole lot cause I don't do it but wow has dedicated rp servers with enforced naming rules and public chat rules (no Xxsephiroth69xx) and a generally bigger playerbase participating in it from what I hear. Not sure how hard they enforce those rules but either way rping is definitely bigger and more supported in wow.

Casual pvp is far far better in wow. pvp in general is just a thousand times better. There's also world pvp.

Wow will sometimes add hard solo content like the mage tower in legion to get exclusive glamours unavailable anywhere else. There's no equivalent to that in ff.

So really all you can say that ffxiv has on it in ''casual content'' is like crafting and housing? Is the reason we don't have like 8 bosses a tier because they made new housing wards once in an expansion?Or added 2 recipe books that likely has the same look as already existing gear? willing to bet way more people raid atleast normals then there are people with houses. I mean there's a limited supply of them so there literally can't be that many people doing it.

As for crafting, if you're bothering making anything worthwhile I would argue that it's anything but casual. Some of the mats required for crafting are a huge grind and usually require you to be omnicrafter (I've gotten every single one from 1 to 70 and have all master recipes so I'm not talking out of my ass) so you can make some of the items required to make whatever it is you're making.

Most of the reasons I see are still paying off the debt of 1.0 (did they really put that much in it to still be reeling from it 6 years later?) Using most of it's money to fund other projects and what I think is the most likely, very inefficient working methods due to horrid code and engine limitations. You can feel that last one with the general '' clunkiness'' of the game. (can't talk while mounted can't interact with objects til you're out of combat stance loading screens everywhere terrible netcode making pvp unplayable etc).

I haven't been subbed to wow since like september and haven't seen anything past uldir so I'm not shilling for them, they generally piss me off with their raids coming out 1 month after the patch in order to get another month sub out of you (even though its 100% complete and ready to come out) 6 month mount deals to meet quarterly report and taking away stuff off their cash shop as 'GOING AWAY DEALS BUY NOW' to give a false sense of urgency to get people to panic buy stuff when we all know it's going to return later, I mean it's a virtual item it literally can't go out of stock.

tldr i think not enough money is going back into the game as well as inefficient work due to poor coding and a terrible engine from being built on the corpse of another game is the real reason for such small patches in general that have the same amount of casual content than other games if not less while sacrificing their endgame regardless for it.

You can surpass the character limit by going back and editing the post later. A bit archaic, I know.

But yes, I end up playing this game for about 2 months every 6 month cycle, because of the lack of raiding content. You are exactly correct about the PvP. I loved PvP in SWToR, and yes, it was the one thing I enjoyed on WoW. This game is not a PvP game and I have accepted that. But, this MMO is certainly not a home for me without enough content to keep me engaged for even half of a cycle. It is more like a place I'm fond of visiting every so often. I want it to be home, but it can't be with so little for me to do that I actually enjoy. I always end up coming back for the story, which I love. I'll go hard on the savage raids for a couple months until my main job is fully geared out, then quit. I'll come back very briefly throughout the six months to keep up to date on story patches and to try out the 24 man raids for a bit. I still don't even play half of the 6 month cycles. I guess that is what Yoshi intended, but it's somewhat sad for me, as this is my favorite game when I have something I enjoy doing on it.

They devote considerable resources to the casual content, which is what the majority of the playerbase enjoys. Makes sense if they want to rake in money, I suppose. Just wish they would deign to grace us with more robust raiding/battle content to do at max level. FFXI had Sky, Sea, open world HNMs in RotZ and WotG areas. Assault, Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar...

What do we have in FFXIV? Extreme trials and Savage trials(they're not raids.)

[FelixDaCat]

You can thank other players for this. Players in general do not want this in an MMO. Coil had small bits of this and people didn't want it so now we get what we get.

I've only been playing this game since early access for Stormblood, thanks to Playstation Access on YouTube doing a really detailed video about FF14 and Stormblood, so I still feel very much a noob player compared to most people on these forums and I have meet in game.

Over these past couple of years, I have noticed the odd post or comment about some of the Duties being nerfed, as people we up in arms about it being too difficult. Again, I honestly thought this was people over reacting, but it seems they were actually telling the truth?

One reason why I avoided doing a lot of the bigger duties ( 8 man upwards) is that I am always being embarrassed and/or ashamed of how poorly I am playing. Even though I now use a PC, I still use my Dual Shock 4, as I have a lot of spinal nerve damage and it's very painful for me to sit at my desk to play. Also, I take quite a large amounts of opiates, which is like having a fog in my head most of the time. The reason I bring this up, is I understand it is my own shortcomings that prevented me from beating some of the content and I would never have the gaul to demand they nerf stuff, just so it easy enough for me to do. So am I correct in thinking that your comment is about players wanting things spoon fed to them, rather than actually trying to beat the fight by improving?

Like I mentioned in my post you quoted, I always thought the claims people made about this sort of stuff happening, was typical forum over-reaction, but it seems I may have brushed it off too easily myself?

I am not very good with remembering names in general, so I don't understand what you are referring to when you mention "Coil had small bits of this...." Please could you go into a bit more depth on this for me?


Regards,


FElix