If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[CazzT]

If we ever get a list of the 10 greatest misquotes in FFXIV, this is going to be right up there.

Oh really?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._that_healers/
That was from a simple google of "ffxiv yoshi p healer dps".

Closely followed by this.

Everquest had healer DPS (My shaman was literally a 1 man raid and by late Luclin, I was soloing pretty much anything that didn't one shot or death touch me), WoW had healer DPS (Disc Priest? PvPing Shaman?), meanwhile Rift, Warhammer and Blade and Soul literally had you healing via DPS on certain classes.

I called it. "And I'm calling it now that my post will be twisted and words put in my mouth and completely misrepresented."
You completely misunderstood what you quoted. Let me type it out again and I'll highlight the part you either ignored or intentionally dismissed..

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS.

I'd like to know where I said, or implied, in any way that Healers in other MMOs don't DPS. I didn't. In fact, I'll do one better. I played Disciple of Khaine in WHO. That was a melee Healer who healed primarily through the damage they did. I loved that class! THAT class would be expected to DPS because it's how it was designed to heal (even though they eventually gutted it into being a cliche "cast direct heals" play style). But nowhere did I say that Healers in other MMOs don't DPS, just that it's not demanded of them.

That's the thing, though, they are required.

As I've pointed out, this mentality is the problem.

An excepcional healer player will probably be the guy that can heal and give a good amount of DPS. If that's the case, to say that healers are not required to DPS doesn't make sense. If, to give the BEST of my class and perform an amazing job means that I'm doing a good amount of DPS while healing, that means that I am required, as a healer, to DPS, and I should do it if possible.

You're approaching this wrong. Being the best means going above and beyond what is required of the class/role.

If they aren't new players, someone adjusting, etc, chances are... they're being lazy if they outright refuse to DPS and stand idle in their downtime. Sorry if that offends you, but if you think that your only role is heal and you can do nothing else, dude, you're being lazy. Make healing your priority is one thing, acting like DPSing as a healer is just fluff bonus is another.

LOL Offends? What? That's a rather trollish thing to say.

Geez, tone down that drama, please?

Says the guy making trollish comments like "if that offends you"...

Someone on DF probably told you to throw a dot and now healers are being "abused"? C'mon. Healers are not abused, nor insulted. Yeah you may find rude people on DF every once in a while but that's hardly the norm, and if you're playing an MMO that just... happens, report and move on.

You're displaying the exact behavior I'm talking about.

If anything it's insulting to think that my role should be stand idle waiting for someone to get hit and I'm not REQUIRED to do anything else.

The only thing your role is required to do, and thus the very least your role should do, is heal. You will, of course, twist what I've just said to accuse me of saying "you think healers should only heal" even though that is in no way what I have ever said. The only thing required of Healers is to heal. Very few healers do only what is required of them. Even though I point this out, I'm still falsely accused of saying things I have never said.

And healers in those games probably do not have that demand because you're talking about... different games? In which damage happens in a different way, in which you probably have other things healers can do on their downtime, whatever?

lolwut? Healers have downtime in other MMOs, too. It doesn't matter of the damage comes in dots or waves or heavy hitting attacks, the scenario of Healer downtime still exists.

Doesn't matter what happens in other games, in FFXIV you're expected to DPS once you're good to do that, you're REQUIRED, once you feel comfortable with the fight, to DPS, because if you want to always be doing something to help your team during the fight, that something besides healing and rezzing is dealing damage, that's pretty much your only option.

You're just proving my point about the toxic mentality here.

[Nedkel]

... Raw went from a Parry bonus to a flat 25% defensive ability on a 25 second cooldown. That is leaps and bounds superior in every facet. It sharing a CD with Nascent Flash matters little because they have different uses. The latter is intended for use while OTing—essentially providing Warrior with a TBN/Intervention equivalent. Raw is for when you're MTing. Speaking of TBN, an additional 5% of a tank's HP is much more potent. We're boasting six digits now. That is no small amount.

Old Raw was on a 90s CD compared to 25s now. That is almost four times the usage for a CD you acknowledges is stronger. Seriously. And what? Warrior was more tanky before? They didn't even have a tank stance. Defiance only boosted their HP. Warrior literally got a 20% free defensive buff. While DRK did lose some of its HP sustain, you typically wanted to avoid Dark Arts Abyssal Drain because it was technically a DPS loss unless you were overcapping on MP.

As for Protect. The mitigation of it was so low, you often wouldn't even save a healing cast if memory serves. It had a purpose much in the same way food or materia does but it wasn't anything significant. Furthermore, tank stats as a whole accommodate some losses. Hence why tanks are often taking less damage now than during Stormblood's release. You have to consider prior to 5.0 tanks did not have a 25s 20% CD they essentially spam. That contributes significantly more than Protect ever did.

Idk did you played tanks in stormblood for long, but anyone who did will tell you, they were a lot tankier in tank stance back then than they are now.

Raw intuition is trash now because it shares CD with Nascent flash, it wont be used in dungeons pulls maybe on bosses on tank buster mechanics, nothing more.

Warrior with 20% heal and HP bonus was able to hold wall-to-wall pull on his own without healer with IR damage windows, it was super strong, with convalescence ON he would heal himself to full with one steel cyclone on IR.

As i told you before protect bonus was entirely dependent on the amount of defensive stat you had, it was super small for dps and healers, but a significant buff for tanks
For tanks protect buff translated into 8-10% mitigation bonus for free and up all the time.

It takes today more healing than it was before.
I dont blame healers for not dpsing, because balance in dungeons changed by a ton towards healers.

[EpicOverlord85]

A Tank is there to hold threat. Period. Damage is a byproduct.
A Healer is there to Heal. DPS is nice when it happens, but is not a requirement of the role.
DPS is there to DPS. Period. If they heal to help out, great, if they peel adds off the healer, great. But neither are required as those are not requirements of the DPS role.

The problem is people have this mentality that DPS is part of the Healer role. It is not.

So what is everyone supposed to do once they have fulfilled their “roles?” Stand around and watch the DPS?

[Melorie]

sigh

Keep throwing the word toxic for anyone that states something you don't agree with, it still won't make me a toxic player - I don't even suggest lazy healers that only spam Medica I on DF to do DPS, even though I think that they're a burden to the party, I don't kick people, I talk about healer DPS with people that are interested to hear about it. If anything, I'm less toxic than dramatic people that act like healers are suffering some sort of abuse just because someone is stating that that healers should and are required to DPS in order to bring the best of their job to the table. Because this statement is not a lie.

This mentality is hardly toxic - expect that people play their best has nothing to do with being toxic. You can express this idea in a very toxic and rude way, of course, and you shouldn't do that, but that's something else. And if this, in a game, is such a toxic thing for you... Well. My condolences, really.

[WaxSw]

As healer your job is to maximize your damage while keeping your party and yourself alive, if you want to do just one of those things you're not doing your job properly and you can't call yourself a "good healer"

[Nedkel]

Keep throwing the word toxic for anyone that states something you don't agree with, it still won't make me a toxic player - I don't even suggest lazy healers that only spam Medica I on DF to do DPS, even though I think that they're a burden to the party, I don't kick people, I talk about healer DPS with people that are interested to hear about it. If anything, I'm less toxic than dramatic people that act like healers are suffering some sort of abuse just because someone is stating that that healers should and are required to DPS in order to bring the best of their job to the table. Because this statement is not a lie.

This mentality is hardly toxic - expect that people play their best has nothing to do with being toxic. You can express this idea in a very toxic and rude way, of course, and you shouldn't do that, but that's something else. And if this, in a game, is such a toxic thing for you... Well. My condolences, really.

They are not required to dps.
Give it just 1 second to listen to this guy (interviewer).

https://youtu.be/5la_nyC5BO0?t=281

Yoshi P is our boss of the bosses, what do you need more than his words itself?
Its just that and only that, just because NPC deal damage from time to time does not mean the whole game balance is based on it.
Heck our game got even a rebalance patch where healers lost one of their DPS skill, and tanks got squisher to enforce healers to heal more, it clearly moved towards healers to heal more, you could see it clearly in fflogs where SCH and AST are dealing relatively a lot less dps than they used to.

Healers are not required to dps, fin, fim, finito, ende, koniec.

[Sebazy]

Oh really?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._that_healers/
That was from a simple google of "ffxiv yoshi p healer dps"

There's a VERY big difference between:

So Yoshi P is not more important? Because his stance is that healers should not be DPSing at all.

And

We do not expect healers to contribute DPS

He isn't telling or advising healers not to DPS. Rather, he feels that it isn't expected. Maybe there's a language barrier thing here but that's quite a significant difference in my eyes.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS.

My WoW Resto shaman was fully demanded to DPS in PvP. Not just required or expected, but outright demanded. It was literally expected of me in all forms of PvP from gank groups in the open world through to Arena even though I was a pure healer build once the

Everquest also had expectations. Got an army of Druids standing around not using their nigh unresistable swarm line of dots? That's a pretty significant waste of damage right there. You'd get told to use them very quickly. Again, I'll restate that my Shaman was fully expected to DPS where possible, particularly in merits or raid trash.

Not going to argue the WoW/Blade/Warhammer points since DPS is more centric to those roles than we see in FFXIV. I could probably add FFXI's SCH to the fringe case list as well.

One thing I should make very clear though, in FFXIV I actually don't demand that healers DPS above all else. That's just as idiotic as suggesting that they shouldn't DPS at all. All I ask is that they strive to improve and contribute to the group's overall performance to the best of their ability. The issue right now is that once you've hit the baseline healing requirements, there's very little to contribute outside of DPS.

[Nedkel]

He isn't telling or advising healers not to DPS. Rather, he feels that it isn't expected. Maybe there's a language barrier thing here but that's quite a significant difference in my eyes.

A girl quoted above stated that the game is designed in mind of healers to dps, which is false.
The game is not designed around healers doing DPS, like at all. Its just an addition and devs are not saying that healers have to dps, they could if they want to but they dont have to.

No one is saying that healers shouldnt dps, its just that they dont have to, thats all.
No one is supposed to pressure healers to dps.

[IttyBitty]

They are not required to dps.
Give it just 1 second to listen to this guy (interviewer).

https://youtu.be/5la_nyC5BO0?t=281

Yoshi P is our boss of the bosses, what do you need more than his words itself?
Its just that and only that, just because NPC deal damage from time to time does not mean the whole game balance is based on it.
Heck our game got even a rebalance patch where healers lost one of their DPS skill, and tanks got squisher to enforce healers to heal more, it clearly moved towards healers to heal more, you could see it clearly in fflogs where SCH and AST are dealing relatively a lot less dps than they used to.

Healers are not required to dps, fin, fim, finito, ende, koniec.

ONCE AGAIN, the content that is placed in front of us determines what is or isn't true in the scope of the game's design. It doesn't matter one iota what Yoshi himself says or believes. Either his team designs content in such a way that healers cannot DPS, or they will have to deal with the fact that the player base will demand that healers DPS as a component of basic class competence (ie ABCs)

Healing requirements REALLY have not changed to any appreciable degree. It is pretty consistent with early HW. It is pretty consistent with early SB. You and yours are just used to overgearing everything.

[Granyala]

A girl quoted above stated that the game is designed in mind of healers to dps, which is false.

Incorrect.
A game that is designed around healers not DPSing would not give healers that much idle time.

The game is designed in a way that any healing class does NOT need to full time heal. As such, it is logical that the community expects the player to fill the downtime and contribute to the groups efforts.

That is by DESIGN.

However, the game, or to be more precise, the encounters, are not balanced with healer DPS in mind, meaning the encounter doesn't force healer DPS in order to be mathematically beatable, though healer DPSing can make the difference between a single digit % wipe and a kill.

DESIGN vs BALANCING, a subtle but important difference.