If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[Melorie]

The problem is people have this mentality that DPS is part of the Healer role. It is not.

Healer NPCs do damage. We have to do damage in order to pass our job quests. The game is designed in a way that we have a lot of downtime in which the only thing we can do... is damage. And yet you want to act like DPS is not part of the healer role? You might want to ignore this aspect of the role but doesn't change the fact that it's part of it.
A complete healer that actually pushes his job to the max and do their best, eventually (in a content in which they're comfortable) deal damage. Like it or not. If people don't like it, feel free to ask for a change in the gamplay and how it's designed for healers - claiming that we are not supposed to deal DPS won't change the fact that in the current game state, we are. This is not a mentality-problem, it's a game-design problem.

[Alaray]

A Tank is there to hold threat. Period. Damage is a byproduct.
A Healer is there to Heal. DPS is nice when it happens, but is not a requirement of the role.
DPS is there to DPS. Period. If they heal to help out, great, if they peel adds off the healer, great. But neither are required as those are not requirements of the DPS role.

The problem is people have this mentality that DPS is part of the Healer role. It is not.

DPS isn't a byproduct if I subscribe to the healer mindset and use 1 aoe twice in a pull. Basically tiny damage, no impact, but I'll have threat and that's all I need right? I don't need to do anything else, because I'm there to tank. Just like that healer is there to heal. :^)

Or I can tank everything wall to wall, do damage output and mitigate to expedite the run.

[Sebazy]

I am far better with healer who heals and rarely push dps button than i do with healers who dps and just let me bite the mud. With good DPS and healer who keeps my heath bar above 60-70% i could pull everything in sight and make it still working.

Plot Twist: On SCH I actually find huge wall to wall pulls easier on my MP.

Groups that are single pulling packs will usually have me running OOM after 3 packs or so and resorting to either single target nuking at best or simply standing still at worst. I really should make a recording of the difference as it's quite a stark contrast.

As far as damage numbers go. I've been pulling 8 to 9k+ dps in the expert dungeons with zero primal gear at the time. Once I actually stop being hilariously unlucky and my gear is sorted, I'm seriously thinking that I'll be able to hit 10k sustained for a dungeon with a little bit of planning.

[CazzT]

I've said it before, and I'll likely say it many many times again.

You can play how you want to, all you want when you are by yourself. But the following holds true when playing in a party, every time, for every single class.

Your $12.99 says you can play the game how you want, but the rest of your group's $38.97 (light party), or $90.93 (full party), or $298.77 (24-man raids), says learn how to play your class.

In conclusion, to everyone who says that Healers shouldn't DPS at all, by making that stance you are saying that you are more important than the group, that your needs come first.

So Yoshi P is not more important? Because his stance is that healers should not be DPSing at all.

Healer NPCs do damage.

You're comparing players to AI? Really? That doesn't help your case at all. Tank NPCs can't hold threat for jack. I guess that means player Tanks shouldn't be holding threat either, using your logic.

A complete healer that actually pushes his job to the max and do their best, eventually (in a content in which they're comfortable) deal damage. Like it or not. If people don't like it, feel free to ask for a change in the gamplay and how it's designed for healers - claiming that we are not supposed to deal DPS won't change the fact that in the current game state, we are. This is not a mentality-problem, it's a game-design problem.

Once again, Healer is not REQUIRED to DPS. For some reason that statement is misread as "healers should not dps". I don't know why it's so difficult to understand the difference between the two. I'm not arguing for no Healer DPS, I'm saying the toxic mentality that Healers are lazy/bad/trash because they aren't DPSing is the problem. The overwhelming majority of Healers will DPS during moments of downtime.

DPS isn't a byproduct if I subscribe to the healer mindset and use 1 aoe twice in a pull.

I never said DPS from a Healer is a byproduct. I said DPS from Tank threat generating attacks is a byproduct.

Basically tiny damage, no impact, but I'll have threat and that's all I need right?

That is the core of the Tank role.

I don't need to do anything else, because I'm there to tank. Just like that healer is there to heal. :^)

Correct. Keyword being NEED.

Or I can tank everything wall to wall, do damage output and mitigate to expedite the run.

Addressing the highlighted part of this quote: It's great when it happens. But again, not a requirement of the role.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS. Healers DPS here, WoW, ESO, EQ2, etc. But only in FFXIV are Healers insulted, abused, denigrated, and attacked for not doing so. We're supposed to have one of the best communities and yet this community has one of the most toxic mentalities around.

And I'm calling it now that my post will be twisted and words put in my mouth and completely misrepresented. That's already happened several times in this thread alone.

[Sebazy]

So Yoshi P is not more important? Because his stance is that healers should not be DPSing at all.

If we ever get a list of the 10 greatest misquotes in FFXIV, this is going to be right up there.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS.

Closely followed by this.

Everquest had healer DPS (My shaman was literally a 1 man raid and by late Luclin, I was soloing pretty much anything that didn't one shot or death touch me), WoW had healer DPS (Disc Priest? PvPing Shaman?), meanwhile Rift, Warhammer and Blade and Soul literally had you healing via DPS on certain classes.

[Granyala]

The main issue (at least for WHMs I see) is that they're trying to play the job like they used to play. You should never really be relying on cure, cure II, medica, medica II or cure III anymore. It should be all OGCDs (asylum, benison, tetra) and when you have to GCD heal, using your lilies.

Crappily geared tanks that pull wall to wall take WAAY too much damage for that to work.
There is no way around using your cast heals.

Maybe once gear picks up, yes.

[Melorie]

Once again, Healer is not REQUIRED to DPS. For some reason that statement is misread as "healers should not dps". I don't know why it's so difficult to understand the difference between the two. I'm not arguing for no Healer DPS, I'm saying the toxic mentality that Healers are lazy/bad/trash because they aren't DPSing is the problem. The overwhelming majority of Healers will DPS during moments of downtime.

That's the thing, though, they are required. An excepcional healer player will probably be the guy that can heal and give a good amount of DPS. If that's the case, to say that healers are not required to DPS doesn't make sense. If, to give the BEST of my class and perform an amazing job means that I'm doing a good amount of DPS while healing, that means that I am required, as a healer, to DPS, and I should do it if possible. If they aren't new players, someone adjusting, etc, chances are... they're being lazy if they outright refuse to DPS and stand idle in their downtime. Sorry if that offends you, but if you think that your only role is heal and you can do nothing else, dude, you're being lazy. Make healing your priority is one thing, acting like DPSing as a healer is just fluff bonus is another.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS. Healers DPS here, WoW, ESO, EQ2, etc. But only in FFXIV are Healers insulted, abused, denigrated, and attacked for not doing so. We're supposed to have one of the best communities and yet this community has one of the most toxic mentalities around.

Geez, tone down that drama, please? Someone on DF probably told you to throw a dot and now healers are being "abused"? C'mon. Healers are not abused, nor insulted. Yeah you may find rude people on DF every once in a while but that's hardly the norm, and if you're playing an MMO that just... happens, report and move on.

If anything it's insulting to think that my role should be stand idle waiting for someone to get hit and I'm not REQUIRED to do anything else.
And healers in those games probably do not have that demand because you're talking about... different games? In which damage happens in a different way, in which you probably have other things healers can do on their downtime, whatever? Doesn't matter what happens in other games, in FFXIV you're expected to DPS once you're good to do that, you're REQUIRED, once you feel comfortable with the fight, to DPS, because if you want to always be doing something to help your team during the fight, that something besides healing and rezzing is dealing damage, that's pretty much your only option.

[zylo1010]

I said this earlier in the thread, but all the options earlier were shot down. And reasonably so, so what about this idea. Tie healer dps abilities to small heals. Say as a whm you cast stone, 1% of the damage heals the lowest health player.

I feel as long as they don't over power the healing from damage abilities in this idea, it would be a happy medium. Healers that like to dps still do and healers that only want to heal will have no argument as thier dps is healing.

[Semirhage]

You....obviously didn't pay close enough attention then. That definitely happened A LOT.

It is good that WHM seems to be in a good place, but the aim is to make ALL the healers in a good place?

Guilty as charged. But my screaming for nerfs didn't come from a "they should suffer because I did" place, and more of a "one single job shouldn't, by itself, offer a ridiculous breadth of utility, super efficient healing, tons of damage, unmatched weaving and GCD flexibility, and a partridge in a pear tree, especially when the devs absolutely refuse to give half that list to one of the three and ensuring it sits dead last all the time" place.

As for the thread's topic, Sylphies are still banging on about this? Healing in all but the most derpy parties is so flipping easy in this game. It's the bare minimum effort. Neither of the other two roles have this loud, proud subcommunity dedicated to being considered "skilled" for adamantly refusing to improve their skill.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

That has never been the pro dps side's argument and you know it. We never, ever, say dps comes first. We want people to dps instead of constantly casting cure 1, physick, benefict to keep the tank topped off even though their health hasn't even dipped below 90%.

Keeping people topped off is not a cardinal sin. In fact, when I start stacking regens that means I'm about to kick out some major dps, and I'm just topping you off so you don't die while I Holy spam (because you're likely not going to see a heal until Thin Air is back on CD). Look, I get it. Everyone should pull their weight, but that does not give anyone leave to guess what that weight is. I get to manage healing as I see fit. DPS too. I enjoy full health bars. Doesn't mean I don't throw out damage when I can but the more health you have the less I have to worry if you take a hit. I understand the gripe about AFK but making getting topped off a sign of SJW healing is really getting me angry because I don't do it for filler. I do it to keep you safe and able to take a hit while I throw out a damage spell (or 6).

In any case, know that's not where you were going with this comment but its like the 3rd or 4th time someone's mentioned topping off the tank like that's bad behavior and its not--unless that's all you're doing. Just saying.