If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[CazzT]

I've said it before, and I'll likely say it many many times again.

You can play how you want to, all you want when you are by yourself. But the following holds true when playing in a party, every time, for every single class.

Your $12.99 says you can play the game how you want, but the rest of your group's $38.97 (light party), or $90.93 (full party), or $298.77 (24-man raids), says learn how to play your class.

In conclusion, to everyone who says that Healers shouldn't DPS at all, by making that stance you are saying that you are more important than the group, that your needs come first.

So Yoshi P is not more important? Because his stance is that healers should not be DPSing at all.

Healer NPCs do damage.

You're comparing players to AI? Really? That doesn't help your case at all. Tank NPCs can't hold threat for jack. I guess that means player Tanks shouldn't be holding threat either, using your logic.

A complete healer that actually pushes his job to the max and do their best, eventually (in a content in which they're comfortable) deal damage. Like it or not. If people don't like it, feel free to ask for a change in the gamplay and how it's designed for healers - claiming that we are not supposed to deal DPS won't change the fact that in the current game state, we are. This is not a mentality-problem, it's a game-design problem.

Once again, Healer is not REQUIRED to DPS. For some reason that statement is misread as "healers should not dps". I don't know why it's so difficult to understand the difference between the two. I'm not arguing for no Healer DPS, I'm saying the toxic mentality that Healers are lazy/bad/trash because they aren't DPSing is the problem. The overwhelming majority of Healers will DPS during moments of downtime.

DPS isn't a byproduct if I subscribe to the healer mindset and use 1 aoe twice in a pull.

I never said DPS from a Healer is a byproduct. I said DPS from Tank threat generating attacks is a byproduct.

Basically tiny damage, no impact, but I'll have threat and that's all I need right?

That is the core of the Tank role.

I don't need to do anything else, because I'm there to tank. Just like that healer is there to heal. :^)

Correct. Keyword being NEED.

Or I can tank everything wall to wall, do damage output and mitigate to expedite the run.

Addressing the highlighted part of this quote: It's great when it happens. But again, not a requirement of the role.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS. Healers DPS here, WoW, ESO, EQ2, etc. But only in FFXIV are Healers insulted, abused, denigrated, and attacked for not doing so. We're supposed to have one of the best communities and yet this community has one of the most toxic mentalities around.

And I'm calling it now that my post will be twisted and words put in my mouth and completely misrepresented. That's already happened several times in this thread alone.

[Sebazy]

So Yoshi P is not more important? Because his stance is that healers should not be DPSing at all.

If we ever get a list of the 10 greatest misquotes in FFXIV, this is going to be right up there.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS.

Closely followed by this.

Everquest had healer DPS (My shaman was literally a 1 man raid and by late Luclin, I was soloing pretty much anything that didn't one shot or death touch me), WoW had healer DPS (Disc Priest? PvPing Shaman?), meanwhile Rift, Warhammer and Blade and Soul literally had you healing via DPS on certain classes.

[Melorie]

Once again, Healer is not REQUIRED to DPS. For some reason that statement is misread as "healers should not dps". I don't know why it's so difficult to understand the difference between the two. I'm not arguing for no Healer DPS, I'm saying the toxic mentality that Healers are lazy/bad/trash because they aren't DPSing is the problem. The overwhelming majority of Healers will DPS during moments of downtime.

That's the thing, though, they are required. An excepcional healer player will probably be the guy that can heal and give a good amount of DPS. If that's the case, to say that healers are not required to DPS doesn't make sense. If, to give the BEST of my class and perform an amazing job means that I'm doing a good amount of DPS while healing, that means that I am required, as a healer, to DPS, and I should do it if possible. If they aren't new players, someone adjusting, etc, chances are... they're being lazy if they outright refuse to DPS and stand idle in their downtime. Sorry if that offends you, but if you think that your only role is heal and you can do nothing else, dude, you're being lazy. Make healing your priority is one thing, acting like DPSing as a healer is just fluff bonus is another.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS. Healers DPS here, WoW, ESO, EQ2, etc. But only in FFXIV are Healers insulted, abused, denigrated, and attacked for not doing so. We're supposed to have one of the best communities and yet this community has one of the most toxic mentalities around.

Geez, tone down that drama, please? Someone on DF probably told you to throw a dot and now healers are being "abused"? C'mon. Healers are not abused, nor insulted. Yeah you may find rude people on DF every once in a while but that's hardly the norm, and if you're playing an MMO that just... happens, report and move on.

If anything it's insulting to think that my role should be stand idle waiting for someone to get hit and I'm not REQUIRED to do anything else.
And healers in those games probably do not have that demand because you're talking about... different games? In which damage happens in a different way, in which you probably have other things healers can do on their downtime, whatever? Doesn't matter what happens in other games, in FFXIV you're expected to DPS once you're good to do that, you're REQUIRED, once you feel comfortable with the fight, to DPS, because if you want to always be doing something to help your team during the fight, that something besides healing and rezzing is dealing damage, that's pretty much your only option.

[CazzT]

If we ever get a list of the 10 greatest misquotes in FFXIV, this is going to be right up there.

Oh really?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._that_healers/
That was from a simple google of "ffxiv yoshi p healer dps".

Closely followed by this.

Everquest had healer DPS (My shaman was literally a 1 man raid and by late Luclin, I was soloing pretty much anything that didn't one shot or death touch me), WoW had healer DPS (Disc Priest? PvPing Shaman?), meanwhile Rift, Warhammer and Blade and Soul literally had you healing via DPS on certain classes.

I called it. "And I'm calling it now that my post will be twisted and words put in my mouth and completely misrepresented."
You completely misunderstood what you quoted. Let me type it out again and I'll highlight the part you either ignored or intentionally dismissed..

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS.

I'd like to know where I said, or implied, in any way that Healers in other MMOs don't DPS. I didn't. In fact, I'll do one better. I played Disciple of Khaine in WHO. That was a melee Healer who healed primarily through the damage they did. I loved that class! THAT class would be expected to DPS because it's how it was designed to heal (even though they eventually gutted it into being a cliche "cast direct heals" play style). But nowhere did I say that Healers in other MMOs don't DPS, just that it's not demanded of them.

That's the thing, though, they are required.

As I've pointed out, this mentality is the problem.

An excepcional healer player will probably be the guy that can heal and give a good amount of DPS. If that's the case, to say that healers are not required to DPS doesn't make sense. If, to give the BEST of my class and perform an amazing job means that I'm doing a good amount of DPS while healing, that means that I am required, as a healer, to DPS, and I should do it if possible.

You're approaching this wrong. Being the best means going above and beyond what is required of the class/role.

If they aren't new players, someone adjusting, etc, chances are... they're being lazy if they outright refuse to DPS and stand idle in their downtime. Sorry if that offends you, but if you think that your only role is heal and you can do nothing else, dude, you're being lazy. Make healing your priority is one thing, acting like DPSing as a healer is just fluff bonus is another.

LOL Offends? What? That's a rather trollish thing to say.

Geez, tone down that drama, please?

Says the guy making trollish comments like "if that offends you"...

Someone on DF probably told you to throw a dot and now healers are being "abused"? C'mon. Healers are not abused, nor insulted. Yeah you may find rude people on DF every once in a while but that's hardly the norm, and if you're playing an MMO that just... happens, report and move on.

You're displaying the exact behavior I'm talking about.

If anything it's insulting to think that my role should be stand idle waiting for someone to get hit and I'm not REQUIRED to do anything else.

The only thing your role is required to do, and thus the very least your role should do, is heal. You will, of course, twist what I've just said to accuse me of saying "you think healers should only heal" even though that is in no way what I have ever said. The only thing required of Healers is to heal. Very few healers do only what is required of them. Even though I point this out, I'm still falsely accused of saying things I have never said.

And healers in those games probably do not have that demand because you're talking about... different games? In which damage happens in a different way, in which you probably have other things healers can do on their downtime, whatever?

lolwut? Healers have downtime in other MMOs, too. It doesn't matter of the damage comes in dots or waves or heavy hitting attacks, the scenario of Healer downtime still exists.

Doesn't matter what happens in other games, in FFXIV you're expected to DPS once you're good to do that, you're REQUIRED, once you feel comfortable with the fight, to DPS, because if you want to always be doing something to help your team during the fight, that something besides healing and rezzing is dealing damage, that's pretty much your only option.

You're just proving my point about the toxic mentality here.

[Melorie]

sigh

Keep throwing the word toxic for anyone that states something you don't agree with, it still won't make me a toxic player - I don't even suggest lazy healers that only spam Medica I on DF to do DPS, even though I think that they're a burden to the party, I don't kick people, I talk about healer DPS with people that are interested to hear about it. If anything, I'm less toxic than dramatic people that act like healers are suffering some sort of abuse just because someone is stating that that healers should and are required to DPS in order to bring the best of their job to the table. Because this statement is not a lie.

This mentality is hardly toxic - expect that people play their best has nothing to do with being toxic. You can express this idea in a very toxic and rude way, of course, and you shouldn't do that, but that's something else. And if this, in a game, is such a toxic thing for you... Well. My condolences, really.

[Nedkel]

Keep throwing the word toxic for anyone that states something you don't agree with, it still won't make me a toxic player - I don't even suggest lazy healers that only spam Medica I on DF to do DPS, even though I think that they're a burden to the party, I don't kick people, I talk about healer DPS with people that are interested to hear about it. If anything, I'm less toxic than dramatic people that act like healers are suffering some sort of abuse just because someone is stating that that healers should and are required to DPS in order to bring the best of their job to the table. Because this statement is not a lie.

This mentality is hardly toxic - expect that people play their best has nothing to do with being toxic. You can express this idea in a very toxic and rude way, of course, and you shouldn't do that, but that's something else. And if this, in a game, is such a toxic thing for you... Well. My condolences, really.

They are not required to dps.
Give it just 1 second to listen to this guy (interviewer).

https://youtu.be/5la_nyC5BO0?t=281

Yoshi P is our boss of the bosses, what do you need more than his words itself?
Its just that and only that, just because NPC deal damage from time to time does not mean the whole game balance is based on it.
Heck our game got even a rebalance patch where healers lost one of their DPS skill, and tanks got squisher to enforce healers to heal more, it clearly moved towards healers to heal more, you could see it clearly in fflogs where SCH and AST are dealing relatively a lot less dps than they used to.

Healers are not required to dps, fin, fim, finito, ende, koniec.

[IttyBitty]

They are not required to dps.
Give it just 1 second to listen to this guy (interviewer).

https://youtu.be/5la_nyC5BO0?t=281

Yoshi P is our boss of the bosses, what do you need more than his words itself?
Its just that and only that, just because NPC deal damage from time to time does not mean the whole game balance is based on it.
Heck our game got even a rebalance patch where healers lost one of their DPS skill, and tanks got squisher to enforce healers to heal more, it clearly moved towards healers to heal more, you could see it clearly in fflogs where SCH and AST are dealing relatively a lot less dps than they used to.

Healers are not required to dps, fin, fim, finito, ende, koniec.

ONCE AGAIN, the content that is placed in front of us determines what is or isn't true in the scope of the game's design. It doesn't matter one iota what Yoshi himself says or believes. Either his team designs content in such a way that healers cannot DPS, or they will have to deal with the fact that the player base will demand that healers DPS as a component of basic class competence (ie ABCs)

Healing requirements REALLY have not changed to any appreciable degree. It is pretty consistent with early HW. It is pretty consistent with early SB. You and yours are just used to overgearing everything.

[Shurrikhan]

They are not required to dps.
Give it just 1 second to listen to this guy (interviewer).

https://youtu.be/5la_nyC5BO0?t=281

Yoshi P is our boss of the bosses, what do you need more than his words itself?

A game that gives us something else to do with our (massive amounts of) downtime than just dpsing?

That the director says "I'd rather not have healers be obliged to dps" means no more than a principal saying "I'd rather none of my students fall behind." It's a nice enough intention, but meaningless until that leader and their staff make it so.

[Alphras]

First of if your group expects you to dps, you are expected to dps. That's it. Discussions on the healer forums don't help to change this expectation.

In this game you have alot of downtime as healer a in regards to your global cooldowns (I would say up to 80% in the current extreme trials, or up to 100% with a static). You have two options to fill this downtime.
1. Do damage
2. Do nothing

At the end of the day, dps (combined healer dps mind you) is a measurement of how well you are healing.

They are not required to dps.
Give it just 1 second to listen to this guy (interviewer).

https://youtu.be/5la_nyC5BO0?t=281

Yoshi P is our boss of the bosses, what do you need more than his words itself?
Its just that and only that, just because NPC deal damage from time to time does not mean the whole game balance is based on it.
Heck our game got even a rebalance patch where healers lost one of their DPS skill, and tanks got squisher to enforce healers to heal more, it clearly moved towards healers to heal more, you could see it clearly in fflogs where SCH and AST are dealing relatively a lot less dps than they used to.

Healers are not required to dps, fin, fim, finito, ende, koniec.

His opinion doesn't really matter in this discussion at all if the game isn't designed to reflect it.

[Sebazy]

Oh really?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._that_healers/
That was from a simple google of "ffxiv yoshi p healer dps"

There's a VERY big difference between:

So Yoshi P is not more important? Because his stance is that healers should not be DPSing at all.

And

We do not expect healers to contribute DPS

He isn't telling or advising healers not to DPS. Rather, he feels that it isn't expected. Maybe there's a language barrier thing here but that's quite a significant difference in my eyes.

It's funny how no other MMO community demands the Healer DPS.

My WoW Resto shaman was fully demanded to DPS in PvP. Not just required or expected, but outright demanded. It was literally expected of me in all forms of PvP from gank groups in the open world through to Arena even though I was a pure healer build once the

Everquest also had expectations. Got an army of Druids standing around not using their nigh unresistable swarm line of dots? That's a pretty significant waste of damage right there. You'd get told to use them very quickly. Again, I'll restate that my Shaman was fully expected to DPS where possible, particularly in merits or raid trash.

Not going to argue the WoW/Blade/Warhammer points since DPS is more centric to those roles than we see in FFXIV. I could probably add FFXI's SCH to the fringe case list as well.

One thing I should make very clear though, in FFXIV I actually don't demand that healers DPS above all else. That's just as idiotic as suggesting that they shouldn't DPS at all. All I ask is that they strive to improve and contribute to the group's overall performance to the best of their ability. The issue right now is that once you've hit the baseline healing requirements, there's very little to contribute outside of DPS.