Hairstyle Concerns for The New Races

[AngelicSnake]

I just need to know if Jandelaine can do plastic surgery. If he can then I think I will be okay with the few hairs for now.

[Iscah]

I just need to know if Jandelaine can do plastic surgery. If he can then I think I will be okay with the few hairs for now.

The question is, would you trust him doing it?

[wereotter]

I don't get how people with other races can possibly be upset if Hrothgar can change face to get different manes at the aesthetician because of the face+hair conjoined issue.

Literally, they can choose their hairstyles at will, Hrothgar can't (in theory) without this implementation, simply as that. Even worse that our lion friends already have a tiny pool of styles to choose from against the dozens that are available for other races.

It opens up the door for someone to say that if hrothgar can sculpt their face again, even if they’re not charging their hair, then others not playing hrothgar will want to too. Just think how many requests to change eye color with the aesthetician exist. In theory, even if eye color isn’t an option, you’d have to let them change noses, jawlines, face shape, etc using him if they’re going to be able to change their hair. Effectively hrothgar players will limited in one regard, may have benefits other players do not have in another regard.

And if they can make all those changes, you can bet that there will be many people who demand that those same face sculpting options be unlocked for all races if they’re unlocked for one.

[reivaxe]

It's not about being upset or entitled but staying skeptical until said stuff is delivered. Why are people feeling this way? It's because this is the first time for FF14 veteran players that the 2 new races have such "unique" design choices to it. No headgear that covers the entire head will be shown and not all of hairstyles will be available and etc..

There's a difference between skepticism and cynicism.

Here, lets put this in context ...

Yoshi has been nothing but transparent with the development of these 2 races after reveal. Because of him we know that both races were only able to reach a presentable state shortly before their reveals (explains why all the Viera had face 1 and why the Hrothgar had the crappy lighting and filters to cover up the poor texture work at that stage). We know why they were added , we know his thoughts on bringing in yet another handsome race with different ears and we know why they decided to release 1 gender for each race. He's painted a very clear picture of what lead to this.

We were told that they wouldn't be able to show ANY head gear unless it was like the mascot heads where it completely replaces the head and that the team would work on adding head gear post release of 5.0. He then shares with us that behind his back and on their free time the devs worked on making 400-500 head gears show on the new races heads even though they had planned to work on this later. They do the media tour where for some reason no youtube "influencer" bothered to ask about this topic but after releasing the benchmark and being asked about it he says these things that are in no way vague. That kinda invalidates skepticism ... we KNOW for a fact he said this as we have this information from an interview. There's nothing to speculate about on that front.

So he has given us no reason to think he isn't being truthful about this information about the new races.

This is where I see things going into cynicism.
And by that I mean "An inclination to question whether something will happen or whether it is worthwhile; pessimism.".

Saying "You don't know, they could just release 1 hair style at the end of the Expansion. This isn't good news" is cynicism. It's taking what we do know (Yoshi saying that they will release more hairstyles and faces for Hrothgar after 5.0 release) disregarding things he said (that the team is prepared for it rn) and taking it to the worst case scenario to discredit the news.

Then you have people also saying things like "Don't take those words as a promise that any added styles will be radically different to the existing ones. It may simply be different combinations of the existing faces and manes" which is the exact opposite of what he said ... this is some kinda nonsense as it assumes he doesn't know the difference between "new hairstyles" and "undoing the decision I made to tie hairs to faces so that I can reuse current hair styles instead of just making new ones".

Cynicism is only used to breed a pessimistic PoV on something to continue a negative narrative or feed negativity. Be it clear or not that negativity will be directed to the Hrothgar in the end.
If you try to push or hold on to the narrative that Hrothgar have bad CC by disregarding any positive news on that front AND ignoring any of the cool and unique CC they do have well also showing no worry for what was said about Viera then .... you're not pushing for support of expanding their CC. Your negativity will just end up pushing a narrative that they are bad/ poorly done/ a waste to people who don't bother to put thought into things.

Like how Meoni gave his opinion on the Races in a video were he shows a clear lack of understanding the basics of the CC to paint Hrothgar in a poor light ("Why can't I use this tattoo option on this other face?" maybe if you didn't play a clean faced catgirl you'd know any race with Tattoos has said tattoos locked to each face). He didn't like it and used his feelings to push a negative take on the race ("they shoulda gone with Male Viera..") which I've seen ripple through out his comment section. He's still doing it. He reported on this news with the assumption that Hrothgar players would be upset to hear ... that their race of choice is gonna get MORE faces and hairstyles instead of getting common ones shared by all. The general take on reddit about this was a sigh of relief that we're getting more and a grunt of discomfort with the conformation that Viera will only get "some" of the shared hairs cause who knows which those will be or how many that is?


Here's an Idea ... lets do a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT!

Certain people here are HOPEFUL for male VIERA (Instagram peeps will get that lol) and are clearly disappointed at the lack of a gender options for the Viera, a race only shown to as women in other games who are shockingly only shown as women in this game.

Lets say Yoshi says this about it tomorrow ...
"Yoshi: In order to get ShB released in the state we wanted to we had to do things this way. But YES, we will be releasing Male Viera and Female Hrothgar after the ShB expansion is completed. Our teams are prepared to take this on "

Would you take this as good news? He said in no uncertain words that this will happen and they're ready to do it ... do you trust him on this?

Or do you say "You don't know, for all we know they're gonna release them on the LAST patch of the LAST expansion before the game is shut down and not allow them to wear more than half the male gear at the time"?

Or do you say " Oooh Poppycock, they could just be putting bunny ears on a Elezen and cat ears on a Femroe, you don't know."

Or do you act like he doesn't know what goes into different genders and say "You can't take his words as a promise. He could just take the tits off of Viera and slap some tits onto the Hrothgar males and say they're now the other genders"?

This would clearly be said to spread or promote negativity about the situation regardless of the news by using any made up worst case scenario to down play said news.
It's not constructive nor productive which is why I ask "whats the point of discussing this if this is what you think?". Cause the only goal I see would be to feed into outrage culture, were you have to assume the worst to get your blood going regardless of the logic behind it.

It opens up the door for someone to say that if hrothgar can sculpt their face again, even if they’re not charging their hair, then others not playing hrothgar will want to too. Just think how many requests to change eye color with the aesthetician exist. In theory, even if eye color isn’t an option, you’d have to let them change noses, jawlines, face shape, etc using him if they’re going to be able to change their hair. Effectively hrothgar players will limited in one regard, may have benefits other players do not have in another regard.

And if they can make all those changes, you can bet that there will be many people who demand that those same face sculpting options be unlocked for all races if they’re unlocked for one.

You wouldn't have to assume that the Hrothgar can fully rearrange their face to allow face changing.

They're set up in a way that every face feature option is the same for each face. The narrow mean looking eyes are eye 3 on all of them. The smallest nose is the same number on all of them. So if you make a mean looking, small nose big chin no fangs having Hrothgar no matter what face you swap to you're gonna get that face's version of those features. That way if you really want to change the details you gotta buy a potion.

Or maybe they do let you basically change everything but the tall/ voice settings. We'll find out.

And it really doesn't matter if some people think it's not fair if that's how SE does it, they are supposed to be seen as a completely different race from others on the very base concept level. Them not having freedom to mix and match hairs with faces AND not having access to any of the non-hrothgar hairs in this game puts them in a situation where either SE demands Hrothgar players pay $10 to change their hair or they're given some freedoms others don't have to make up for it. Maybe fur patterns is the hidden key to this and we get like 50+ patterns to make up for being stuck with our unchanging hair unless we pay $10 to change it?

[Raikai]

It opens up the door for someone to say that if hrothgar can sculpt their face again, even if they’re not charging their hair, then others not playing hrothgar will want to too. Just think how many requests to change eye color with the aesthetician exist. In theory, even if eye color isn’t an option, you’d have to let them change noses, jawlines, face shape, etc using him if they’re going to be able to change their hair. Effectively hrothgar players will limited in one regard, may have benefits other players do not have in another regard.

And if they can make all those changes, you can bet that there will be many people who demand that those same face sculpting options be unlocked for all races if they’re unlocked for one.

Except the Hrothgar can't - just sculpt their faces without changing hair - because they are attached to one another. My whole point is that the lions are limited already as they are and hair is the most distinguishable customizing aspect of a character, it's the thing besides race, that we spot first on someone.

Them not having freedom to mix and match hairs with faces AND not having access to any of the non-hrothgar hairs in this game puts them in a situation where either SE demands Hrothgar players pay $10 to change their hair or they're given some freedoms others don't have to make up for it.

Exactly this is what I mean. If this is not an option, then Hrothgar will unfortunately be gated behind 10 bucks to change one of the most important customization options that everyone else can change at will ingame (well, for 2000 gil it is).

So, this is why I believe it's unreasonable for non-Hroths to demand this.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see how they'll deliver in launch.

[Dalmacus]

snip

Yoshi has been nothing but transparent with the development of these 2 races after reveal.

Yes, yoshi-p has been transparent about the design of the 2 new races but only to a certain extent. The whole ordeal of the hrothgar and not all hair are available for viera were discovered by the playerbase via the benchmark. This thread started because of that and in nowhere did yoshi-p nor the devs said this beforehand so of course people will be worried. Prior to that, we only heard from yoshi-p that claimed that the new races will have a lot of customizations which probably to an average player speculation is au'ra full list of customizations + more. So, i would say yes he was transparent about the design but also he didn't give out enough information on what to expect for the 2 new races.

He then shares with us that behind his back and on their free time the devs worked on making 400-500 head gears show on the new races heads even though they had planned to work on this later.

This happened after Japan fan festival where the japan community strongly feedback to the devs that they were worried about their mogstation purchased/achievement earned head gears not being able to use on the new races and was hoping the devs are able to do something about it which led to that.

If you try to push or hold on to the narrative that Hrothgar have bad CC by disregarding any positive news on that front AND ignoring any of the cool and unique CC they do have well also showing no worry for what was said about Viera then .... you're not pushing for support of expanding their CC. Your negativity will just end up pushing a narrative that they are bad/ poorly done/ a waste to people who don't bother to put thought into things.

To be honest i don't really care about hrothgar at all. All i did was look at the issue/context and briefly describe to you why people are feeling what they are feeling. Additionally, i don't know why you're accusing me of pushing negativity when i clearly stated that i will adopt a wait and see approach.

Like how Meoni gave his opinion on the Races

Like you have described. Meoni gave his opinion. Are people not entitled to an opinion now? All he stated was he personally didn't like how the hrothgar customization function as they are and gave an opinion, anyone can take his opinion and spin it to a different narrative like what you are doing now. It seems to me that you are trying to drive up a narrative where whatever the devs or yoshi-p decided to do is all right/correct and we should keep quiet and appreciate instead of criticizing and giving feedback on what we are expecting with new races.

It's not constructive nor productive which is why I ask "whats the point of discussing this if this is what you think?". Cause the only goal I see would be to feed into outrage culture, were you have to assume the worst to get your blood going regardless of the logic behind it.

The whole point of this thread discussion is because players are trying to feedback to the devs that this is not what they expected nor wanted when new races are implemented into the game.

[wereotter]

Except the Hrothgar can't - just sculpt their faces without changing hair - because they are attached to one another. My whole point is that the lions are limited already as they are and hair is the most distinguishable customizing aspect of a character, it's the thing besides race, that we spot first on someone.





Exactly this is what I mean. If this is not an option, then Hrothgar will unfortunately be gated behind 10 bucks to change one of the most important customization options that everyone else can change at will ingame (well, for 2000 gil it is).

So, this is why I believe it's unreasonable for non-Hroths to demand this.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see how they'll deliver in launch.

My point here is that if you have to pick your face to go with your hair, logically if you want to change faces to get different hair, then you’d need to be able to select different nose, jaw, and mouth options to make sure the face looks right. Even on existing races, you can’t just swap from one face to another and keep all the same options and have a right-looking face. So it follows if those options are unlocked with the aesthetician for hrothgar, they’re there even if you leave the hair alone.

That follows that some players upon learning that absolutely will complain that hrothgar could get a nose job for 2,000 gil but their race has to pay $10 for it.

I personally don’t care either way. I just have seen enough to know this is absolutely what will happen and that puts Square in a tricky spot when it comes to how the handle this.

[Iscah]

I just don't think it's possible to let Hrothgar change face/mane at the aesthetician, because it will be using an option that isn't available there. It's (likely to be) essentially the inverse of the situation for Au Ra, who get away with being able to partly change their eye colour and scales - even though it would logically come under "body changing" and require a Fantasia - because they're controlled by settings that were already alterable in other races. But there isn't a setting that would equate to Hrothgar faces.

[reivaxe]

Yes, yoshi-p has been transparent about the design of the 2 new races but only to a certain extent. The whole ordeal of the hrothgar and not all hair are available for viera were discovered by the playerbase via the benchmark. This thread started because of that and in nowhere did yoshi-p nor the devs said this beforehand so of course people will be worried. Prior to that, we only heard from yoshi-p that claimed that the new races will have a lot of customizations which probably to an average player speculation is au'ra full list of customizations + more. So, i would say yes he was transparent about the design but also he didn't give out enough information on what to expect for the 2 new races.

You're very much splitting hairs here.

They also said that they would have unique head customization. Many took this to mean "more" but that's not the same thing.

This happened after Japan fan festival where the japan community strongly feedback to the devs that they were worried about their mogstation purchased/achievement earned head gears not being able to use on the new races and was hoping the devs are able to do something about it which led to that.

What's your point? My point is that he was clear with telling us their approach to the head gear (Release with ZERO, work on adding some after release) and then he was open about what the devs did behind his back.
He's not taking personal credit for it by making it seem like he made it happen. He also didn't hide the lack of head gear when asked about it.

That's my point ... he has given us zero reason to 2nd guess the truthfulness of his comments about these races.
So him saying that yes, they will be making "more Hrothgar hairstyles and faces after 5.0 hits" shouldn't be seen as some kinda scam or lie or "half truth".
Just like I'm sure we can trust him when he says "NO, we will not be making a child like race or character for players". He has given us no reason to think he would lie about that.

To be honest i don't really care about hrothgar at all. All i did was look at the issue/context and briefly describe to you why people are feeling what they are feeling. Additionally, i don't know why you're accusing me of pushing negativity when i clearly stated that i will adopt a wait and see approach.

And I described to you why what people are displaying is cynicism, not "just being skeptical" but outright refusing to think anything different of the situation's future and completely ignoring objectively good news for no clear reason other than push negativity.

I don't believe I accused you of anything, I straight up referred to things said in other post here (cause that's the topic at hand) to show what I meant by asking the question of "why bother even discussing this if you don't trust the man's words". Mostly used the post as a vehicle to address many post here without systemically replying to everyone.

Like you have described. Meoni gave his opinion. Are people not entitled to an opinion now? All he stated was he personally didn't like how the hrothgar customization function as they are and gave an opinion, anyone can take his opinion and spin it to a different narrative like what you are doing now. It seems to me that you are trying to drive up a narrative where whatever the devs or yoshi-p decided to do is all right/correct and we should keep quiet and appreciate instead of criticizing and giving feedback on what we are expecting with new races.

No, what Meoni did was deliver his opinion as if it was based on facts with out proper understanding of the CC.
Here an example of what he coulda done ...
"Looking at the number of tabs they have they're inline with other males in this game. However they can't change lip color or hairstyle like other males. But to compensate for that they're given the ability to change the color and appearance of large parts of their body at well. I don't personally like this choice so I'm not impressed". Kinda his thing, he does a dry analytical/ objective look at something before giving his personal opinion.

What he did ...
"They're so limited! Why can't I use these tattoos on this other face (That's how it works for all races with tattoos, they are locked to the face)? Why are these spikes considered tattoos and not just a face feature (Not all tattoos look like tattoos. Femroe tats look like chalk for example. They want you to be able to color the spikes which you can't do if it's a face feature)? Why is the horn only on this face and these whiskers only on that face (face features are always locked to faces. Even when they're of the same type like Moles or Scars they appear different on different faces. This is completely normal, the devs just took this chance to give them some extremely unique features that play into the beast look)? All of them are gonna look the same and this shows a clear bias for females (disregards all their unique traits). This is why I play females"

Kinda off brand for him IMO but goes perfectly inline with what I see from people here. A desire to push cynicism instead of actually discussing things.

So yeah, we get our answer ... that being that Hrothgar will get more Hrothgar only hair styles and faces and Viera will get "some" of the shared hair styles. They're treated as a wholey unique race in this way and their hair is tied to their face options. But apparently people arnt allowed to take said answer we got (more hairstyles and faces) as good news?

You'd think such news would spark inquisitive discussion such as "what kinda faces could they be adding?" but no, if you're only interested in spreading pessimism you say things like "How can you take this as good news/ this is no promise/ they didn't do this one unrelated thing before so there's no guarantee they will do this".

The whole point of this thread discussion is because players are trying to feedback to the devs that this is not what they expected nor wanted when new races are implemented into the game.

Feedback? No, this thread was started as a means to discuss their hair.

"In the cases of both races, does this mean extra hairstyles, such as those from potd or mog station outfits, will be unusable?

We need clarification on all of this."

We got clarification. This thread is not a platform to change anything.

[Dalmacus]

snip

What's your point?

My point is that the 400-500 headgear adjustment to new races were only started when the Japanese community strongly gave feedback to the devs asking them to do something about it. Information, if you find it pointless, each his/her own i guess.

Your negativity will just end up pushing a narrative that they are bad/ poorly done/ a waste to people who don't bother to put thought into things.

Maybe you should read your own statement before refuting me.

No, what Meoni did was deliver his opinion as if it was based on facts with out proper understanding of the CC.

He literally said in his video "A lot of people might get the wrong impression here that i hate the hrothgar for some reason or something with how much i don't like it's creation here and that's simply just not the case, let me set that record straight."
So what you are doing is, spun his opinion to suit your agenda and trying to public slander him here or something? Why are you doing this and what is your motive for doing this? I'm not here to discuss meoni with you so if you have an issue with him please take it up with him so you can understand where he is coming from.

Feedback? No, this thread was started as a means to discuss their hair.
"In the cases of both races, does this mean extra hairstyles, such as those from potd or mog station outfits, will be unusable?
We need clarification on all of this."

I'm pretty sure discussion like these are also feedback for devs.

We got clarification. This thread is not a platform to change anything.

I'm gonna call that fake news. Unless you have an evidence to back that claim. There is no clarification from the devs that those from potd/mogstation will be usable or unusable. All yoshi-p stated was hrothgar will get it's unique customization and viera will get some but not all and in no way did he confirmed that potd/mogstation/achievement hairstyles is confirmed to be included either. I know this because i translated part of the E3 information on reddit.