Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Kazrah]

So here are my perspectives on it:

Playing a tank, unless I'm doing the dungeon for the first time, I'm always pulling two packs at a time. Seems like a happy medium where the healer can do some damage while maximizing aoe and likely not have any panic moments. If the healer says to pull more or less, I don't mind adjusting accordingly since while it is the tank that determines the pace, it's the healer that determines how valid that pace is or should be.

Playing a healer, I usually don't mind whatever pace the tank sets knowing the pulls from tanking them myself. That being said, having taught enough people how to tank in this game, I also know that some tanks are much less comfortable with their role than others, and have no problem if a tank feels the need to pull less since I can just make my own fun as a healer if things turn toward boredom.

Playing a DPS, I honestly couldn't care less what the pace is. I have patience, which is usually rewarded with morons whining because the tank isn't pulling more only for them to either leave or get killed. Preferably the latter since I can still usually do damage while pointing, laughing and bouncing on their corpse.

TL;DR: The tank sets the pace, the healer validates the pace, and the DPS need to enjoy the fact that they're still not in queue.

[Tint]

Yes, the tank should set the pace. But in the best interest of the group, wich means usually "pull big", and into consideration of his own skills.

However, I have a prime example of how impatient DDs and healers destroy my cooldown management and pull pace for no reason:

Ala Mhigo, between the first and second boss. At first there are 2 groups of trash with 2 soldiers and 1 robot monkey. These robot monkeys can hurt a lot. They also have a lot of life, so you can't aoe them down, you have to use single target attacks. I pull these 2 groups one by one, because as I said it makes no sense to aoe them and the main reason is: I don't need my cooldowns then. I want to save my cooldowns to pull the next trash groups after the robot monkeys together. All these dogs and whatever it was on top of the stairs at the barrier.
But nearly everytime some impatient DD or healer is running ahead and is pulling the second robot monkey. I have to grab that one, burn my cooldowns, watch while they single target the monkeys and then have to pull the next trash groups one by one, because my defense is already blown up.
Well, okay, when a healer pulls i refuse to use my cooldowns, so I still can do the big pull afterwards ^^

Of course people can request bigger pulls and how OP describes it the tank really should have tried to pull more, but usually the people should just trust the tank that he knows what he is doing - or what he is not capable of doing. And please stop starting to pull stuff on your own.

I remember one time in Antitower when I was a fresh level 60 tank. Big pulls are nothing you learn while leveling, and I really struggled with mana mangement (DRK with old Darkside), enmity and cooldowns. So I pulled smaller. And the whole party was just ignoring me. They were running ahead, pulled the next group and let me die. I actually laughed because it was a funny situation - but I left the dungeon.

[Beki_Bayaqad]

Yes, the tank should set the pace. But in the best interest of the group, wich means usually "pull big", and into consideration of his own skills.

However, I have a prime example of how impatient DDs and healers destroy my cooldown management and pull pace for no reason:

Ala Mhigo, between the first and second boss. At first there are 2 groups of trash with 2 soldiers and 1 robot monkey. These robot monkeys can hurt a lot. They also have a lot of life, so you can't aoe them down, you have to use single target attacks. I pull these 2 groups one by one, because as I said it makes no sense to aoe them and the main reason is: I don't need my cooldowns then. I want to save my cooldowns to pull the next trash groups after the robot monkeys together. All these dogs and whatever it was on top of the stairs at the barrier.
But nearly everytime some impatient DD or healer is running ahead and is pulling the second robot monkey. I have to grab that one, burn my cooldowns, watch while they single target the monkeys and then have to pull the next trash groups one by one, because my defense is already blown up.
Well, okay, when a healer pulls i refuse to use my cooldowns, so I still can do the big pull afterwards ^^

Of course people can request bigger pulls and how OP describes it the tank really should have tried to pull more, but usually the people should just trust the tank that he knows what he is doing - or what he is not capable of doing. And please stop starting to pull stuff on your own.

I remember one time in Antitower when I was a fresh level 60 tank. Big pulls are nothing you learn while leveling, and I really struggled with mana mangement (DRK with old Darkside), enmity and cooldowns. So I pulled smaller. And the whole party was just ignoring me. They were running ahead, pulled the next group and let me die. I actually laughed because it was a funny situation - but I left the dungeon.

Oh man, I had so many wipes in the ala mhigo dungeon from idiot, impatient DDs pulled multiple groups or triggering mass spawns while I was busy getting my tail torn off by bullshit powerful trash I was already handling, Kugane Castle is the same, with people popping the HORDES OF NINJAS that all hit like small trucks on me.

[ReiMakoto]

Oh man, I had so many wipes in the ala mhigo dungeon from idiot, impatient DDs pulled multiple groups or triggering mass spawns while I was busy getting my tail torn off by bullshit powerful trash I was already handling, Kugane Castle is the same, with people popping the HORDES OF NINJAS that all hit like small trucks on me.

You were probably undergeared or not using mitigation optimally if that was the case. All level 70 dungeons except maybe the last pull of hells lid have been really light damage wise, and ive mass pulled them blind every time

[Crystal_Raven]

If the group wants big pulls, which realistically speaking should be the normal in level 70 content, and the tank refuses to do that, kick the tank. His play style is not wanted and does not fit with the party play style. Which is a valid reason for a kick.

This game is casual and honestly, braindead enough where any tank player should easily be able to pull large. This is not a difficult game. You are not playing Dark Souls.

Tanks set the pace, which is as fast as humanly possible.

Oh man, I had so many wipes in the ala mhigo dungeon from idiot, impatient DDs pulled multiple groups or triggering mass spawns while I was busy getting my tail torn off by bullshit powerful trash I was already handling, Kugane Castle is the same, with people popping the HORDES OF NINJAS that all hit like small trucks on me.

You were very likely undergeared or not mitigating properly. Those enemies barely deal any damage.

[Nyvara]

I don't care to do large pulls. I feel that it takes just as much time to kill several small packs as it does to kill one huge pack. Instead I opt to "chain pull" SO that when the first group or two I have pulled are down to 30% I'm already moving to the next pack. In this way I keep the pace quick and the packs small. Don't get me wrong I also will drag a pack of three to another pack of three.

All that depends on the healer as well which I get a feel of from the first pull. If I feel they are struggling Then I don't mind slowing the pace.

If you want to kick me for that fine. You're welcome to wait 15 mins for another tank in that time we could have finished the dungeon. :P

Conversely If the heal says pull maor!!1 Then I pull More! But the first time I die we go right back to my style LOL

[Rongway]

it takes just as much time to kill several small packs as it does to kill one huge pack.

It doesn't.

If there's a pack of four, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If there's a pack of nine, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If a pack of nine is split into 4 and 5, it takes more than twice as long to kill them all because I don't have cooldowns anymore on the second pull.

[Physic]

It doesn't.

If there's a pack of four, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If there's a pack of nine, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If a pack of nine is split into 4 and 5, it takes more than twice as long to kill them all because I don't have cooldowns anymore on the second pull.

depends on what the other dps is, and the tank isnt just supposed to consider dps, but also surviability, cool downs, dps of the party, and what other pulls/mechanics will be involved afterwards.


also, all this optimal talk should not be the standard expectation for a random duty finder for casual content. A 4 man dungeon is not advertised to players as a time attack mode.

[HyoMinPark]

With regards to pacing, I don’t think it’s black-and-white in the sense that it’s always the tank who decides the pace (or always any other role that decides the pace). Any role in any dungeon run can decide what the pace of the dungeon is going to be based on several factors:

Tanks: gear, cooldown management, comfort levels
Healers: gear, healing/MP management, DPS capabilities, comfort levels
DPS: AOE management, gear (to a lesser extent than the first two, but it can still have a bit of an impact)


If a tank is poorly geared, they may not be able to do large pulls in some of the leveling dungeons, since those truck fairly hard. For the expert dungeons, it would depend on their gear and which dungeon—some pulls can be a bit dicey with poorly geared tanks, but generally, the expert dungeons don’t hit very hard. Also, if a tank seems to be allergic to cooldowns, that will also make large pulls more cumbersome because the healer has to babysit them as opposed to helping DPS the mobs down.

For healers, if they cannot manage their healing well enough to keep the tank (or sometimes themselves) alive, then that will slow things down as well. A healer with a poor weapon may also struggle, as their healing output will be significantly hampered by that. Healer DPS also goes a long with with large pulls to Zerg them down—WHMs are easily able to outdo a DPS with Holy spam, and AST can pull a significant amount of damage with Gravity spam as well. SCH has Miasma II.

For DPS, things are going to die really slow if they are those kinds of DPS that refuse to AOE because “it’s boring”. At that point, large pulls aren’t feasible due to their laziness—even if the tank and healer are well-geared/decent players. Eventually, the tank will run out of CDs and the healer will start to bottom out on MP. Gear on DPS can impact their damage, so that needs to be considered, too—but usually DPS hold back a run by refusing to hit their AOE buttons.


Ideally, I think for most dungeons, 2 sets of mobs (5~6 mobs generally) is the “standard”—the only exceptions here are the baby dungeons where there’s not a lot of AOE potential among the DPS. I’m more forgiving if the tank says they are new to tanking and may be nervous—though I do agree that level 70 tanks should at least try to pull more than just 3 mobs. Simply because the dungeons aren’t that threatening to them.

I don't care to do large pulls. I feel that it takes just as much time to kill several small packs as it does to kill one huge pack. Instead I opt to "chain pull" SO that when the first group or two I have pulled are down to 30% I'm already moving to the next pack. In this way I keep the pace quick and the packs small. Don't get me wrong I also will drag a pack of three to another pack of three.

Honestly, this is really bad to do. Not only is it annoying for melee DPS that now how to follow you to continue attacking/upkeep their rotation, you also run the risk of a healer getting aggro on the mobs you’re running to pull through any regen ticks they may have put on you while you’re still tanking the first pack. Casters will also be interrupted if you move out of their range/from them having to follow you. Just wait until the first pack dies if you don’t want to pull big instead of running off with them later.

Large packs should be dying quickly if your DPS are using their AOE rotation. If they are not, then that’s why things take so long to die. Caster LB is also good for really large pulls—already a gain using it against that instead of a boss at sub-2% HP.

[Yeol]

Don't make this more complicated than it actually is.

You have three options to pick from. Your answer will depend on the type of person you are.

1) The party adapts to the weaker link, whether its a tank, healer or dps.
2) The option to kick the weaker link (In OP post it was the tank) because the party refuse to adapt to him.
3) You leave the party because you refuse to adapt to the weaker link while the rest of the party don't mind it.

My personal opinion, adapting to the weaker link is the better option out of the three. It is the one with least negative consequences.