Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Vahlnir]

I know other players for some reason want to do everything as fast as possible (and then sit and AFK for 6 hours), but I don't. I like to actually enjoy the game, not just get to the end. So I'll tank at whatever pace I feel like, depending on the dungeon, if I know the healer, and depending on how well the healer is doing. I don't care how fast you want to go. Kick me if you want, I'll just re-queue in 1 second while you wait 5+ minutes for a new tank.

I really don't get the obsession with having to do things so quickly. What hurry are you in? Do you have a dentist appointment in 20 minutes? It's like when people blast through a game at record pace and then complain it was too short.

I think there's a huge difference between taking one's time and going at a glacial pace. I don't particularly care as long as the group is progressing at a half decent rate, aka not slow enough for me to die of old age, be reborn as a tree, grow up and die again before reaching the last boss. A lot of people prefer speed above all else though. I suppose that my opinion stated in this post makes me one of them...I just give a bit more leeway in regards to it.

[Riblet]

If a Tank is just going to single pack pull, I'd rather just have a 3rd DPS. It would make the dungeon go faster, and healing a BLM who is tanking Mist Dragon would at least be entertaining.

[hydralus]

Also as someone who has leveled several tanks over the years across multiple characters it is very rude to consider only yourself no matter if you consider you're 'the most important' role. If 3 people feel they don't want to play with you because you're not cooperating then I figure, fair enough. Whether it's actually integral to the completion of the duty is often inconsequential compared to wanting some say in how their experience goes and I can't fault people for that. Not everyone can queue as a tank because it simply wouldn't work. People want to level other things or play things they find the most enjoyable.

This doesn't apply to all situations, of course. If you're new or your healer can't see you through it, or DPS are not doing AoEs or other things that can change the context then there's more to argue about. But if the entire group is asking me to pull larger then I see no harm in giving it a go.

[van_arn]

I really don't see what the problem is. It doesn't matter what role you play, you do what the party wants you to do.

If you don't, then you should be kicked.

[Gemina]

Not a 100% certain why you have such a hostile tone, this is simply a discussion agree or disagree we have no reason to be combative with one another.

If you're reading my posts, it shouldn't be too difficult to know where the abrasiveness comes from. Though it is not my intention to come off as hostile or belligerent, I do feel the need to express myself vehemently to get a clear point across. Those points are that we have so few tanks as it is, and kicking one for the reluctance to do large pulls is unreasonable. Especially from a group who 180'd their tone towards this tank, showcasing that their request for the tank to pull large wasn't a request at all; it was a demand.

That said I was not part of the group that initiated the kick, I was simply the tank that filled in when the asked within our discord. That said this conversation came about due to debate that came about within our discord group. I do get where you are coming from, but at the very least I do hope you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. While I cannot say for those that removed the tank, if I were in their position I probably would have done the same, though it is hard for me for to empathizes with the tank that got removed since I have only ever played tanks, and I tend to be extremely compliant with what the group wants even if it ends in failure, since that is how I learn best trial and error.

From this statement, the impression I get is a group willing to boot a tank that did not conform to their demands because they had a backup ready to go. It makes me wonder why they didn't just ask you to tank for them in the first place, and just eliminate the possibility of getting a tank that does not suit their playstyle. If these cases are indeed true, I see you as an associate to their demeanor, and I feel really bad for the tank that got kicked as it very likely didn't make him or her feel any better about their tanking ability. Not all of us can just get up and brush ourselves off from failure, and wiping an entire party and knowing it is your fault isn't always going to be met with the enthusiasm of, "Hey, we tried. No big deal." That tank that got kicked could just have likely came from a party where they were scorned for trying a large pull. We just don't know, except for him/her, and we'll never know.

I do see your side of things, and I know there are things that are not as black and white as I am making them out to be. However, I will never condone behavior that discourages the few tanks we already have. But I also don't encourage bare minimum play, and always believe players should strive to increase their skill. But this isn't something I can force. A player has to want to be better.

Though I will say the group is entitled to each player trying within the best to at least try to conform with the group. In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage, melee rdm, eos only healing sch etc . . . to me all of these are no different from a tank that simply refuses to at the very least "TRY" step outside their comfort zone. I personally would never kick or remove someone for trying and failing, nor would I expect a group to match my pace if the overall group does not want to. For me the group is king, since it is a collective effort. For me the most important part is that they try, I get how that could seem like a demand since yes I would be more inclined to remove a player for not being willing to try, though it is not I just think it is unfair to think that one person should dictate what the group does.

In this case, that one person is the tank. The least played role in this game. They are going to have more entitlement than a healer or DPS simply due to the nature of their role. In a dungeon scenario, they manage the entire thing, and the expectations of them are much higher than any other role; the spotlight is totally on them, and everyone tends to look in their direction should a wipe happen unless it is clear the healer derped, or a DPS check is not met.

I can't even begin to tell you how many bad tanks I've had in my roulettes when going as healer or DPS, but small pulls, though frustrating, has never been a reason that makes me think this player feels entitled and can do whatever the hell they want. You can't force someone out of their comfort zone. They have to want to, and have some level of confidence doing so. The fact that they even queued up as a tank alone might have already taken this player out of their comfort zone.

In the end if I created the hostile tone in my head, that is how I imagined your post sounding in my head I apologize if this is wrong.

I don't think you're entirely wrong and understand why you get this impression. Hopefully I was able to provide some insight and clarification as to why I do come off that way. I truly don't mean to paint you black, and definitely understand your PoV. I do apologize for coming off so harshly and appreciate that you have chosen to see my side of things despite this.

[van_arn]

If a Tank is just going to single pack pull, I'd rather just have a 3rd DPS. It would make the dungeon go faster, and healing a BLM who is tanking Mist Dragon would at least be entertaining.

My favorite snowcloak run of all time is one where the tank bailed after the first pull and we went through the rest of the dungeon without one.

Tanks can have some value if you need to mitigate a heavy buster, but they're certainly not valuable enough to justify the ego some of them have.

[Gemina]

May I ask not sure if you have already answered it, but what you would say is a valid reason to use the vote kick feature? Should it only be used for extreme cases such as a someone going afk for an extended period of time? Someone being belligerent? Also this was not meant to be a vent thread more so a thread seeking differing views on the topic, since clearly people have differing views and I wanted to get a better understanding of every side.

I for one have never initiated a vote kick unless a player DCs. Even then, I'm aware that connections can be dodgy and have asked players to wait at least five minutes before kicking. That's not to say that I haven't dealt with toxic players. I've grouped up with some really rotten apples over the course of the three years I've played this game. I just understand that DF is a total roll of the dice, and if I feel that I am in a toxic environment, then I excuse myself from the duty and take the penalty. I have also never been kicked from any group.

However, the validity of the vote kick feature isn't my issue here. I think this group was within their rights to kick the tank, I just don't agree with it, and think it was really schitty. When I am dealing with high anxiety, or lack of confidence or something, I've always asked my FC to come along or created a PF explaining the situation if they were not available. It took me a really long time to hop into roulette as a tank without my FC or PF.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

Overall I highly doubt they removed the tank because they had a tank in waiting, I have my status as offline most the time in discord and it was sort of late so I do not think they thought that far ahead. That said I do understand where you are coming from, but maybe it is because I mostly play tank roles I do not see myself as deserving of special treatment because my role may be less common. What confuses me slightly is your view seems to be based around a decent amount of what if's, what if they came from a bad group, had poor experience in the past, suffer from anxiety. Rarity of role is really enough of a reason to provide such consideration to a player of said role over any other role. Since as you said we will not know, if we do not know why should that matter? For all we know they were okay with being removed being as they were a tank and could instantly queue up and properly got a pop fairly quickly. Maybe in I am in the wrong for not viewing myself a tank and inherently more valuable since supply currently does not meet the demand. Just that mindset does not mesh well with me, and it always bugged me when people would tell me that in novice network when I first started. Hell, I had one mentor tell me to not even worry about what the group wants, as the tank you are the boss. Just seems counter intuitive in group based content.

[MorbolvampireQueen6]

everyone knows Healers are the gods,goddess of the party dps,tanks are only our puppets

[Gemina]

What confuses me slightly is your view seems to be based around a decent amount of what if's, what if they came from a bad group, had poor experience in the past, suffer from anxiety. Rarity of role is really enough of a reason to provide such consideration to a player of said role over any other role. Since as you said we will not know, if we do not know why should that matter? For all we know they were okay with being removed being as they were a tank and could instantly queue up and properly got a pop fairly quickly.

The 'what-ifs' have very little do with the points I'm trying to get across. They're just examples of what some tanks go through playing that role. I could also argue that healers have a lot of anxiety being responsible for the health and lives of the group, and DPS players always have to deal with no matter how good they are; there is always somebody better. Any which way you want to look at what players and roles are entitled to what, no one is entitled to make demands of another player. Especially when they're already doing what their role requires them to do. In the case of a tank; it's to engage enemies and hold onto aggro. Large pulls are an expectation, not a requirement of this role. So when we boil things down, this tank was kicked for not meeting the expectations of the group.

Maybe in I am in the wrong for not viewing myself a tank and inherently more valuable since supply currently does not meet the demand. Just that mindset does not mesh well with me, and it always bugged me when people would tell me that in novice network when I first started. Hell, I had one mentor tell me to not even worry about what the group wants, as the tank you are the boss. Just seems counter intuitive in group based content.

Whether you see yourself this way or not, you are more valuable due to high demand, low supply. It's just how such things work. You choosing not to be an asshat tank as a result of this privilege show humility on your part; making you even more valuable to the groups you join. But this isn't my point either. Everything, and I do mean everything in my posts is about players being courteous and respectful to one another. It really doesn't matter if you're a tank, healer, or DPS. Everyone has a right to use the duty finder, and the vote kick is abused due to "differences in playstyle". It's not cool. The vote kick should only be used in the most extreme cases which are laid out as the reasons when using this option. This tank that was kicked didn't do any of those, so what would you call it?