Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Beki_Bayaqad]

Yes, the tank should set the pace. But in the best interest of the group, wich means usually "pull big", and into consideration of his own skills.

However, I have a prime example of how impatient DDs and healers destroy my cooldown management and pull pace for no reason:

Ala Mhigo, between the first and second boss. At first there are 2 groups of trash with 2 soldiers and 1 robot monkey. These robot monkeys can hurt a lot. They also have a lot of life, so you can't aoe them down, you have to use single target attacks. I pull these 2 groups one by one, because as I said it makes no sense to aoe them and the main reason is: I don't need my cooldowns then. I want to save my cooldowns to pull the next trash groups after the robot monkeys together. All these dogs and whatever it was on top of the stairs at the barrier.
But nearly everytime some impatient DD or healer is running ahead and is pulling the second robot monkey. I have to grab that one, burn my cooldowns, watch while they single target the monkeys and then have to pull the next trash groups one by one, because my defense is already blown up.
Well, okay, when a healer pulls i refuse to use my cooldowns, so I still can do the big pull afterwards ^^

Of course people can request bigger pulls and how OP describes it the tank really should have tried to pull more, but usually the people should just trust the tank that he knows what he is doing - or what he is not capable of doing. And please stop starting to pull stuff on your own.

I remember one time in Antitower when I was a fresh level 60 tank. Big pulls are nothing you learn while leveling, and I really struggled with mana mangement (DRK with old Darkside), enmity and cooldowns. So I pulled smaller. And the whole party was just ignoring me. They were running ahead, pulled the next group and let me die. I actually laughed because it was a funny situation - but I left the dungeon.

Oh man, I had so many wipes in the ala mhigo dungeon from idiot, impatient DDs pulled multiple groups or triggering mass spawns while I was busy getting my tail torn off by bullshit powerful trash I was already handling, Kugane Castle is the same, with people popping the HORDES OF NINJAS that all hit like small trucks on me.

[Physic]

Apologies, that does make sense after re-reading the OP's post.


I still feel that big pulls are/should be the standard in level 70 content.
At worst - the party dies.
At best - the tank sees that they can pull more

I feel like it's a "Difference in play style" as much as healers not DPSing is a "Difference in play style". I don't feel like expecting the tank to pull more then 4 trash enemies is groundbreaking, and endgame mechanics.

i'm not saying its endgame tactics, but is it reasonable to penalize a player for not being optimal in a random grouping situation. And it is penalizing because the one getting kicked loses the time they spent in duty finder, and the progress in the dungeon.

[Hash_Browns]

i'm not saying its endgame tactics, but is it reasonable to penalize a player for not being optimal in a random grouping situation. And it is penalizing because the one getting kicked loses the time they spent in duty finder, and the progress in the dungeon.

That's a tough situation.
In the OP's case, I think it was more then fair. (Tank was told he could pull more, and it would be fine, and the tank didn't even try)
If a person can't be arsed to try, they shouldn't be surprised when the kick goes though.

IMO, kicks are heavy handed, but teach a good lesson. It's "tough love".
When you get kicked, you realize that the group didn't want your "play style".

[ReiMakoto]

Oh man, I had so many wipes in the ala mhigo dungeon from idiot, impatient DDs pulled multiple groups or triggering mass spawns while I was busy getting my tail torn off by bullshit powerful trash I was already handling, Kugane Castle is the same, with people popping the HORDES OF NINJAS that all hit like small trucks on me.

You were probably undergeared or not using mitigation optimally if that was the case. All level 70 dungeons except maybe the last pull of hells lid have been really light damage wise, and ive mass pulled them blind every time

[Crystal_Raven]

If the group wants big pulls, which realistically speaking should be the normal in level 70 content, and the tank refuses to do that, kick the tank. His play style is not wanted and does not fit with the party play style. Which is a valid reason for a kick.

This game is casual and honestly, braindead enough where any tank player should easily be able to pull large. This is not a difficult game. You are not playing Dark Souls.

Tanks set the pace, which is as fast as humanly possible.

Oh man, I had so many wipes in the ala mhigo dungeon from idiot, impatient DDs pulled multiple groups or triggering mass spawns while I was busy getting my tail torn off by bullshit powerful trash I was already handling, Kugane Castle is the same, with people popping the HORDES OF NINJAS that all hit like small trucks on me.

You were very likely undergeared or not mitigating properly. Those enemies barely deal any damage.

[Nyvara]

I don't care to do large pulls. I feel that it takes just as much time to kill several small packs as it does to kill one huge pack. Instead I opt to "chain pull" SO that when the first group or two I have pulled are down to 30% I'm already moving to the next pack. In this way I keep the pace quick and the packs small. Don't get me wrong I also will drag a pack of three to another pack of three.

All that depends on the healer as well which I get a feel of from the first pull. If I feel they are struggling Then I don't mind slowing the pace.

If you want to kick me for that fine. You're welcome to wait 15 mins for another tank in that time we could have finished the dungeon. :P

Conversely If the heal says pull maor!!1 Then I pull More! But the first time I die we go right back to my style LOL

[Tlachtga]

you are wrong or over simplifying.

Not really.

"decently geared" what does that mean? max stat cap? minimum stat cap?

Minimum item level to enter the dungeon. Anything higher is a bonus.

also, what are you fighting?

The context is lvl 70 dungeons.

i have played with experienced tanks, where some one has died or wiped due to pulling too large. We were fine with it because we know each other, but its simply not true that every tank can pull everything available with any healer class and survive or effectively hold hate.

Every tank has the ability to do it. The players choose not too; most out of laziness.

for one thing, if your pull is too large, depending on your aoe hate tool, monsters will walk out of range.

That comes under basic competence.

And a style choice on how many monsters to pull can not be considered basic competence. basic competence means what will lead to success with average difficulty, not what is the optimal time attack method of play.

Basic competence is mass pulling with defensive cooldown usage. Optimal play would be dropping tank stance after picking up the mobs.

The standard is there. If you choose to not meet the bar, then you should accept any potential consequences.

[Physic]

That's a tough situation.
In the OP's case, I think it was more then fair. (Tank was told he could pull more, and it would be fine, and the tank didn't even try)
If a person can't be arsed to try, they shouldn't be surprised when the kick goes though.

IMO, kicks are heavy handed, but teach a good lesson. It's "tough love".
When you get kicked, you realize that the group didn't want your "play style".

if you were joining a group with an advertised playstyle, i would say thats fair, but if you are joining a randomized group primarily in existence for all players to be able to complete basic content, i dont think its fair, or love.

They have a tool for people who want that level of control, its party finder. if the tank was using duty finder implies he did not want that level of expectation on him.

i would say its generally bad faith to use the tool that is meant to have less requirements and expectations, and then impose more requirements and expectations upon the players, enforced by kicking.


the burden for regular duty finder should be that the player seriously be attempting and capable of completing the content. Not that they perfectly match the plsystyle of the other 3, or be playing optimally imo.

[Rongway]

it takes just as much time to kill several small packs as it does to kill one huge pack.

It doesn't.

If there's a pack of four, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If there's a pack of nine, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If a pack of nine is split into 4 and 5, it takes more than twice as long to kill them all because I don't have cooldowns anymore on the second pull.

[Physic]

Not really.



Minimum item level to enter the dungeon. Anything higher is a bonus.



The context is lvl 70 dungeons.



Every tank has the ability to do it. The players choose not too; most out of laziness.



That comes under basic competence.



Basic competence is mass pulling with defensive cooldown usage. Optimal play would be dropping tank stance after picking up the mobs.

The standard is there. If you choose to not meet the bar, then you should accept any potential consequences.

there is no way minimum ilevel tanks all possess the ability to full pull with any healer, that is just false.

and it is not basic competence to expect a tank to full pull a dungeon if thier conal aoe hate tools cannot hit all the monsters if they do that. In fact i would call that incompetence.

Also, the capability of full pulling is not just based on the tank, but also the healer.

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

basically, at best you are oversimplifying, it is actually fairly rare that simply pulling everything is the best tactic for a tank with a minimum ilevel party.