Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Awha]

Hey,

Earlier today within discord a group of us got into an disagreement around tank entitlement vs group entitlement, which inherently holds more value. What started this conversation within our discord is that group of players within our discord removed a tank that refused to do larger pulls despite the group offering encouragement, and telling them not to worry if things go south that they have their back. The tank refused, so the three removed the tank from the group.

Reason the debate started within the discord was because certain people felt that they were in the wrong that tanks inherently set the pace of the run no one else end of story. The provided reasons that removing someone for not doing large pulls is selfish since it will overall not speed up the group. When I posed the question why does a tank deserve special treatment over any other role? If the group wants to do the large pulls the tank should at the very least try. If this go south so be they can adjust after.

It strikes me as odd since I know for a fact the same group of people that were upset about the removal of the tank refusing to try something new with larger pull despite the group in question telling them that they will be fine and they will support them through it. Have in the past removed dps for refusing to AoE, or healers that do not feel like doing damage and just stand around between downtime.

I am autistic so I tend to have a black and white view on many things, and they did point this out that I am missing the context but no one was able to show me within the context how the tank role is granted a certain level of entitlement that say a dps that refuses to aoe is granted.

So long story short, why is it that a tank role itself seems to be granted a greater degree of entitlement over say three other people in the group. Should the three cater to the desires of the tank simply because they are the tank, or were people right in saying that the tank role itself sets the pace end of the story. Overall just confused since for longest I have been told everything is a group effort enmity control, dos, but pace seems to be a different beast for some. Pace is considered a group effort in the sense that it is expected for DPS to AoE, yet if the overall group is capable of larger pulls and the tank says otherwise then in that case the tank is correct is dictating the pace, but I thought pace was a collective effort.

Agonizes for the spelling and grammatical mistakes.

[Canadane]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

[Awha]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

Possible to whom, the tank or the group? This is what is confuses me statements like the tank does set the pace, but it should be as quick as possible. Who will be the judge that determines what the group is capable of? The tank? Or the group that is trying to reassure the tank that they will be fine and the group can handle it?

[Granyala]

Possible to whom, the tank or the group?

Both obviously.
Your job as a tank is to pull as smoothly and hard as your gear and the group can handle.

Naturally it takes a few failed attempt to find those limits, so typically the first pull is always a coin toss.

I’m curious is there actual statistical data that shows large pulls make a dungeon go faster? I’m just wondering because with huge pulls you loose a bit of healer dps

You don't.
Mobs don't hit hard enough and there are tank cooldowns.
Trust me, AE is A LOT faster.

Leveling dungeons excluded, those mobs hit like trucks.

Also why is there this obsession with making dungeons go as fast as possible? The are the staple of the game, should they not be enjoyable to run at any speed?

Because, due to the fact that mobs in ex dungeons hit like wet noodles with self esteem issues, it is extremely boring for both, tanks and healers to pull individual groups.

[Canadane]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

Possible to whom, the tank or the group? This is what is confuses me statements like the tank does set the pace, but it should be as quick as possible. Who will be the judge that determines what the group is capable of? The tank? Or the group that is trying to reassure the tank that they will be fine and the group can handle it?

Now that the game is down and I have time between my endless light pagos farming, I can shed some lig...knowledge on what I meant. My thoughts here might be a bit fragmented but I hope I express my feelings appropriately.

From the tank perspective, you're pulling mobs, you'll be setting the pace. However, all jobs that are up to date on ilvl are way more powerful than they have every right to be in dungeons. Some dungeons don't require a healer at all. Tanks can be unstoppable walls if played correctly. And that's the key, playing the job correctly.

You find more timid players. Be they inexperienced, or just nervous about some unknown responsibility they think they must live up to. You find this generally with tanks or healers (I can rant about the downfall of DPS too but that's probably better saved for a different topic). And these players are unaware at how powerful SE has made our jobs, or how trivial dungeons actually are. These days healers don't spend GCDs on healing. Tanks don't need to cycle through every single one of their buffs. Sac pulls are a thing of the past as it's better to just kill than it is raise.

Wall to wall pulling is very easy and not hard to complete in the slightest. However, there's been a growing concern that the context of such advice is lost as I suppose it's taken as written. This does not apply to levelling dungeons.
Dungeons that aren't at level cap (50, 60, 70, or soon to be 80) do not have minimum ilvl requirements. Meaning you won't know how undergeared someone will be. For these runs, checking the gear is one step, but you also must understand that even with max gear, it isn't always possible to go wall to wall. Many yes, some become very difficult mind you. An experienced tank who's been though these will already know what the comfortable pull will be and do that.

Now aside from all that, you have people that want to stop and smell the flowers. Admire the fine craftsmanship of the cave wall. Read every flavour text. I'm personally fine with people doing that last one, lore is lore. But when you've been doing the same thing for 8+ years and you have other things to tend to, you want to get this place over with as fast as possible. Having one person stop is generally going to be inconveniencing three others. The default speed for dungeons is "gofast" speed and if slowdowns are required for some reason or another, disconnection, WHM is actually a CNJ and forgot their stone, or someones house is burning down, call them as you see them.

From a non-tank perspective, if a tank is going slow 'just because' or for some other non-reason and they refuse to pick up the pace, I am more than happy to leave, even as a DPS. I have a plethora of things to do that aren't in Duty Finder, a half hour of my time is much more productive doing something that isn't going to be 25 minutes (or more!) in a single dungeon. That being said, I also don't mind pulling ahead. If they tank won't do their job, I'll do it. I've done dungeons tankless before. As a tank, I actually love when a competent DPS pulls ahead, if their sprint is up first, or on dungeons where wall to wall isn't possible. If it means keeping up enochian or greased lightning, or BotD, etc, then I'm all for it. It just means the next pull will die faster because the DPS now doesn't need to ramp up and can instead start out full power.

So again, I apologize over some fragmented ranting here, but hopefully you can understand the general mindset people will have, and the general advice that covers 90% of situations you'll be in, and how to best take in the other 10% of places where it doesn't apply.

[Lihtleita]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

i see you there you warrior main

[Bacent]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

It's about when and where though. I've been running into a lot of new tanks recently. I'm more than happy to let them go as fast/slow as they need to while they're trying to learn, and let them know they can ask me anything if they need it. I have some friends that just returned to the game after taking a break for a couple years almost, and he's beyond rusty.

If people are upfront about wanting to slow down, I'm more than happy to slow down a bit and blast the enemies as a healer (When I'm a healer that is), this doesn't include times I'm in a dungeon and the tank has a first time notice.

I feel like people are the most understanding when an expac drops though. Everything is new to everyone, and a lot of people do slow down when learning a dungeon/new boss/ect.

[Fyce]

It is valid for the tank to refuse doing big pulls, as others have no rights to force someone into playing in a specific way if that person doesn't want to. But if enough people think that someone isn't playing the way the group expect, then it is accepted to get a kick going for "differences in playstyle". It's just a case of irreconcilable gameplay, so a kick is the best option. As long as the discussion remained cordial (in which case, the tank shouldn't really take it personally).

However, it seems illogical to kick a tank and wait for a new one rather than finishing an already in-progress run. They probably wasted more time doing that.

[Lumadurin]

I relish in attempting to pull aggro off of tanks who do single-pulls despite them and the healer being more than geared enough to handle the incoming damage.
As a tank main I actually wince harder when I see it because I understand how inept they really are. At the bare minimum all you're expected to do is mash one button + a couple of cooldowns.
Of course there's multiple factors in play, I understand if someone who's new to tanking isn't very confident at 50, and I'll respect that. But if you're pulling this stunt in Expert Roulette and have multiple max level jobs you're just disrespecting the time of 3 other people.

[Hash_Browns]

No. I make the rules because the party can survive better with me being slapped around then the DPS and Healers. If I'm not there they're not advancing even with all the cures in the world.

Yeah, I ain't buying that.

I main all 3 healers, and I've never had a tank make large pulls and had to say "Hey buddy, slow down, that's too much." except in lower level dungeons (like below level 30) where the group doesn't have much AOE damage going on.

Tanks should be able to easily handle large pulls at high levels if they know what they are doing.
In the level 70 content I expect the tank to have an idea (as long as they aren't new to the dungeon) on how much they can handle, and not slap me with constant 4 enemy pulls.

When you pull less it means everyones DPS is worth less.

I relish in attempting to pull aggro off of tanks who do single-pulls despite them and the healer being more than geared enough to handle the incoming damage.
As a tank main I actually wince harder when I see it because I understand how inept they really are. At the bare minimum all you're expected to do is mash one button + a couple of cooldowns.
Of course there's multiple factors in play, I understand if someone who's new to tanking isn't very confident at 50, and I'll respect that. But if you're pulling this stunt in Expert Roulette and have multiple max level jobs you're just disrespecting the time of 3 other people.

This I can understand. Tanks that are new to dungeons/new to tanking obviously shouldn't charge ahead.