Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Tlachtga]

you are wrong or over simplifying.

Not really.

"decently geared" what does that mean? max stat cap? minimum stat cap?

Minimum item level to enter the dungeon. Anything higher is a bonus.

also, what are you fighting?

The context is lvl 70 dungeons.

i have played with experienced tanks, where some one has died or wiped due to pulling too large. We were fine with it because we know each other, but its simply not true that every tank can pull everything available with any healer class and survive or effectively hold hate.

Every tank has the ability to do it. The players choose not too; most out of laziness.

for one thing, if your pull is too large, depending on your aoe hate tool, monsters will walk out of range.

That comes under basic competence.

And a style choice on how many monsters to pull can not be considered basic competence. basic competence means what will lead to success with average difficulty, not what is the optimal time attack method of play.

Basic competence is mass pulling with defensive cooldown usage. Optimal play would be dropping tank stance after picking up the mobs.

The standard is there. If you choose to not meet the bar, then you should accept any potential consequences.

[Physic]

Not really.



Minimum item level to enter the dungeon. Anything higher is a bonus.



The context is lvl 70 dungeons.



Every tank has the ability to do it. The players choose not too; most out of laziness.



That comes under basic competence.



Basic competence is mass pulling with defensive cooldown usage. Optimal play would be dropping tank stance after picking up the mobs.

The standard is there. If you choose to not meet the bar, then you should accept any potential consequences.

there is no way minimum ilevel tanks all possess the ability to full pull with any healer, that is just false.

and it is not basic competence to expect a tank to full pull a dungeon if thier conal aoe hate tools cannot hit all the monsters if they do that. In fact i would call that incompetence.

Also, the capability of full pulling is not just based on the tank, but also the healer.

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

basically, at best you are oversimplifying, it is actually fairly rare that simply pulling everything is the best tactic for a tank with a minimum ilevel party.

[Rongway]

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

This is not a critical concern at 50, and not a significant concern at 60. It's a non-issue by 70.

[ReiMakoto]

there is no way minimum ilevel tanks all possess the ability to full pull with any healer, that is just false.

and it is not basic competence to expect a tank to full pull a dungeon if thier conal aoe hate tools cannot hit all the monsters if they do that. In fact i would call that incompetence.

Also, the capability of full pulling is not just based on the tank, but also the healer.

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

basically, at best you are oversimplifying, it is actually fairly rare that simply pulling everything is the best tactic for a tank with a minimum ilevel party.

as an example, when SB came out, me and a friend full pulled ala mhigo in just the job gear given and leveling accs, not a single issue, the damage output of these dungeons arn't that high so if both tanks and heals are using their tools properly there shouldnt be an issue. Also the "type" of aoe dps doesn't matter, all aoe is a gain at 3+ mobs, and all classes do pretty good aoe, and is an even bigger gain with more enemies. Also talking about conal hate tools, Warrior has more than just overpower to draw aggro, they have equilibrium and steel cyclone too, which combines with overpower and target swapping, you can pick up all the enemies with ease

[Physic]

as an example, when SB came out, me and a friend full pulled ala mhigo in just the job gear given and leveling accs, not a single issue, the damage output of these dungeons arn't that high so if both tanks and heals are using their tools properly there shouldnt be an issue. Also the "type" of aoe dps doesn't matter, all aoe is a gain at 3+ mobs, and all classes do pretty good aoe, and is an even bigger gain with more enemies. Also talking about conal hate tools, Warrior has more than just overpower to draw aggro, they have equilibrium and steel cyclone too, which combines with overpower and target swapping, you can pick up all the enemies with ease

different dungeons have different numbers of damage in a pull everything scenario. in stone vigil, pull everything means you could go all the way to the first boss. in other dungeons pull everything means 6 monsters until you kill a specific monsters.

there is no way to say for every scenario pull everything is the right answer.


also, your aoe does matter for size of pull. if you have primarily conal aoe, and the pull is large enough, monsters will walk outside the aoe. If you are a tank this means it is likely certain monsters will peel off you and attack dps/healers. Repositioning constantly moves monsters and is not optimal is you are a tank, because moving monsters can mis align aoes, line attacks or ground targeted attacks

Also, if your group has an aoe size that basically only hits 5 mobs reliably, pulling more than 5 monsters is not that effective. Rockbreaker on monk for example is not a large aoe, getting 10 enemies is not that effective in this case and more chaotic for little benefit.

steel cyclone is 5 yalms, its not that big, if you pull the whole dungeon, you wont hit all. also when you pull large numbers the monsters constantly squirm, making it more chaotic. equilibrium is 60 seconds and not primarily for enmity.

all of this is overall irrelevant anyway because expecting optimal gameplay in random duty finders is imo foolish.

[ReiMakoto]

different dungeons have different numbers of damage in a pull everything scenario. in stone vigil, pull everything means you could go all the way to the first boss. in other dungeons pull everything means 6 monsters until you kill a specific monsters.

there is no way to say for every scenario pull everything is the right answer.


also, your aoe does matter for size of pull. if you have primarily conal aoe, and the pull is large enough, monsters will walk outside the aoe. If you are a tank this means it is likely certain monsters will peel off you and attack dps/healers. Repositioning constantly moves monsters and is not optimal is you are a tank, because moving monsters can mis align aoes, line attacks or ground targeted attacks

Also, if your group has an aoe size that basically only hits 5 mobs reliably, pulling more than 5 monsters is not that effective. Rockbreaker on monk for example is not a large aoe, getting 10 enemies is not that effective in this case and more chaotic for little benefit.

steel cyclone is 5 yalms, its not that big, if you pull the whole dungeon, you wont hit all. also when you pull large numbers the monsters constantly squirm, making it more chaotic. equilibrium is 60 seconds and not primarily for enmity.

all of this is overall irrelevant anyway because expecting optimal gameplay in random duty finders is imo foolish.

OH, I thought we were talkin about endgame dungeons here, leveling is a entirely different kettle of fish.

Also I think you just need to be better at positioning if thats the case, cos most of the time when I play War, the cone hits pretty much everything I want, and steel cyclone as hits everything if you're positioned right. Also equilibrium being means its up for basically every mob pack at some point, and its a shit tonne of free aggro and healing. Dunno if you've raided either, but equilibrium is primarily an aggro tool first, a healing tool second.

Also I've never had problems hitting things with rockbreaker on monk so I'm not sure, but "little benefit" isn't exactly right because every extra enemy you hit his a tonne more potency overall, so its worth positioning it right.