Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Shurrikhan]

I honestly don't understand all the knee-jerk reactions to the concept of any DoT spells whatsoever for RDM. I've seen it here, on Reddit, in-game discussions...

I think it mostly comes down to the obligation of play and just the fact that at this point... almost everyone else has one, so what need does RDM really have for it? I'd argue the warrant isn't that solid, as creating "unique" gameplay or niche is rarely the purpose of DoTs (only the class with far more DoTs than any other, and therefore greater ramp-up but also greater cleave and sustain, can really claim such).

First of all, RDMs have a significantly lower stat weight for Spell Speed due to Dualcast. DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, which would bring the stat weight up.

DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, but at a lesser rate, even, than Determination, iirc. Spell Speed still wouldn't be any better in itself; it's just that more of your damage would be GCD-based (or, less oGCD-based).

[Kabooa]

DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, but at a lesser rate, even, than Determination, iirc. Spell Speed still wouldn't be any better in itself; it's just that more of your damage would be GCD-based (or, less oGCD-based).

Speed stats are weighted on two scales. The actual increase, and the amount of damage it affects.

Using arbitrary numbers, let's say the example is is Determination is worth 1% damage and Speed is worth 1% haste, for the same rating.

Speed scales differently than flat damage%. Speed is parabolic increase. 10% Speed is worth 11% more damage (11 actions take 9.9 gcds, 10 actions take 10. 10% damage is always 10% damage. This is why if you've ever seen a black Mage get improved arrows while leyline is active, they skyrocket. 15% + 15% on a multiplicative return is somthing like 28% speed, or about -40%- more damage.

But currently you cannot get to stupid speed levels without heavy buff stacking.

Using Red Mage specifically, any if you completely geared for Spellspeed, I think the highest natural point you can reach via gear is about 14%. About 16% more GCD based damage.

Using non-echo #1 Chaos Red mage, this Red Mage has a damage distrubition of about 82% GCD, 18% OGCD.

But wait, it's more complicated than that. The weaponskill combo is obviously not affected by Spellspeed. While more spell speed means you do the combo more often, that combo is suffering as it does not directly benefit from spellspeed in terms of damage. That's nearly another 18% damage that doesn't benefit from Spellspeed - After all, the advantage is more GCDs, but these GCDs are unaffected by that.

So the 14% spell speed you built for only benefits 64% of a Red mage's damage. This spellspeed number is built at the detriment of other stats as well.

[Archwizard]

So the 14% spell speed you built for only benefits 64% of a Red mage's damage. This spellspeed number is built at the detriment of other stats as well.

Exactly why we should allow more sources of our damage to be affected by Spell Speed -- because ultimately even if you don't slot in Materia specifically for Spell Speed, you're going to end up with a base amount from gearing at any given item level, which would otherwise drag you down.
A DoT wouldn't be enough on its own, obviously, but it could be a start. Also affecting our weapon skills and perhaps (indirectly, like our weapon skills currently) even affecting our cooldown timers would be able to add to this, until our stat parity is comparable to other casters.

[Kabooa]

Exactly why we should allow more sources of our damage to be affected by Spell Speed -- because ultimately even if you don't slot in Materia specifically for Spell Speed, you're going to end up with a base amount from gearing at any given item level, which would otherwise drag you down.
A DoT wouldn't be enough on its own, obviously, but it could be a start. Also affecting our weapon skills and perhaps (indirectly, like our weapon skills currently) even affecting our cooldown timers would be able to add to this, until our stat parity is comparable to other casters.

Black mage is the only job that sees a near 1:1 return of Spellspeed compared to other jobs, and even then it's based more on the encounter. Crit / Det / DH become more useful as more movement is demanded, as higher spellspeed also means your movement related skills are less effective - You're getting less movement the faster your GCD rolls.

Red Mage, Summoner, and almost every other job has the same aversion to speed beyond very specific break points. The Black mage is the odd one out here, not the Red Mage.

[Shurrikhan]

Exactly why we should allow more sources of our damage to be affected by Spell Speed -- because ultimately even if you don't slot in Materia specifically for Spell Speed, you're going to end up with a base amount from gearing at any given item level, which would otherwise drag you down.
A DoT wouldn't be enough on its own, obviously, but it could be a start. Also affecting our weapon skills and perhaps (indirectly, like our weapon skills currently) even affecting our cooldown timers would be able to add to this, until our stat parity is comparable to other casters.

But, wouldn't it still make more sense to just fix spell speed itself than making a horrible stat only a tiny bit less horrible compared to others in arbitrary ways, at potential cost of gameplay, to one particular job? We're on the brink of allegedly "significant combat changes to the game" as is.

[Archwizard]

But, wouldn't it still make more sense to just fix spell speed itself than making a horrible stat only a tiny bit less horrible compared to others in arbitrary ways, at potential cost of gameplay, to one particular job? We're on the brink of allegedly "significant combat changes to the game" as is.

... and how do you propose that? Adjusting the %-value-per-point directly for everyone -- healers and casters alike -- to address its worth to a couple instant-spamming casters? Spell speed is a straightforward stat that's a staple to most video games, and I would argue if the concern is that only BLMs stand around enough to get full mileage from it, it's not the stat's fault but the design of the casters themselves for not being able to receive of it.
Like, let's say you're right and they adjust the weight of the stat. Will a 10% value per-point increase address any of the issues you're naming? 20%? 30+? Unless it makes it some godly overpowered stat, probably not, because you're arguing the issue is in the mechanical design ("less movement the faster your GCD rolls", bearing in mind that more accurately, you're getting more casts in the same allotted amount of time the faster your GCD rolls and can more easily clip movement phases) and not the amount of speed provided itself.
I mean hell, if it didn't affect the GCD it would be garbage for anyone with instants.
Mechanical issues need mechanical fixes. At the very least there needs to be some meeting partway within the design space of the class itself.

To be honest, "at potential cost of gameplay" in this context sounds like an awful lot of doomsaying on surprisingly little to go off of.

[Shurrikhan]

... and how do you propose that?

Merge Skill/Spell Speed into just Speed, make mock-GCDs (like the fixed-GCD Meditation and the Enchanted melee chain) into actual half-GCDs, and have the damage of any oGCDs not already proportionate to Attack Speed (i.e. all but gauge skills) scale with Skill/Spell Speed.

There. The stat now gives 90%+ of the weight of Crit, the current lategame dominant stat. Voila.

[Archwizard]

I personally don't see them adding tons of complexity.

As a WoW Refugee, I've seen plenty of examples of classes where DoTs were not only substantial portions of damage, but sources of (or markers for) additional mechanics like procs, debuffs, resources, or conditional detonations.
... and BLM's Thundercloud, while simplistic, completely blew many of those out of the water. Were they to add a DoT, I'd have complete faith in the devs' ability to make it interesting.

"Complex"? Perhaps not, but nobody said a spell needed to complicate a rotation to add a shred more depth to it.

I'd rather avoid any DoTs being added for the sake of a DoT. If the DoT provided a unique mechanic somehow (beyond "Hey it generates mana too!"), I might be on board with it.

I agree that any DoTs hypothetically added to RDM should add mechanics to the class, particularly since unlike SMN, our design isn't based largely on DoT upkeep.

Although I've heard the argument against "DoTs for the sake of a DoT" more than once. Perhaps I'm thinking too literally here, but if such a proposal was purely made with the intent of giving us a DoT just to have something to upkeep, we'd probably be hearing things like "instant cast," "a cooldown matching its duration", possibly even some mention of being oGCD and adding nothing beyond being a damage skill. Yet I've still heard suggestions that attempted to add new interconnected mechanics be silenced with the same argument.

Bear in mind, I'm not arguing here that "RDMs absolutely need a DoT and they have to add one." I'm just saying that I don't see the value in dismissing such suggestions offhand.

Merge Skill/Spell Speed into just Speed, make mock-GCDs (like the fixed-GCD Meditation and the Enchanted melee chain) into actual half-GCDs, and have the damage of any oGCDs not already proportionate to Attack Speed (i.e. all but gauge skills) scale with Skill/Spell Speed.

Question, given that I'm still somewhat new to the game.
How many other classes actually use both Spells and Weaponskills in their rotation, and would actually receive benefit from the merger of Skill and Spell Speed?
Because to my knowledge it's just RDMs and maybe two spells for PLD (the damage of one of which is affected by weapon delay anyway), which if I'm not mistaken, would mean you're discussing reprogramming an entire stat system and changing input values on who knows how many pieces of equipment... just to avoid changing some input values on a couple of our abilities, which would have to be rebalanced anyway...?

Simultaneously, while I concur that your suggestion would address the issue of the stat's value, my concern with "scale damage with Skill/Spell Speed" is largely that barring a few 'unique' cases (including the PLD spell I already mentioned, or breakpoints), increasing a Speed-oriented stat should affect... well... speed?