Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Archwizard]

Naturally, as you most often need MP after Verraise, which doesn't remotely sync to your melee combos, or after death, which depletes the resource needed to perform your melee combos...

While true -- particularly due to needing to invest MP into performing the melee combo before you could melee combo for MP, especially if they put the melee combo onto an MP cost with the removal of TP in ShB -- my intent with that statement was more geared toward the fact that melee comboing is something we already do. Simply tacking "also recovers X% of MP" onto any existing ability would not change in the slightest how we use the abilities, except possibly to encourage subpar gameplay; for instance, "just spam your unenchanted melee combo if MP gets low" sounds great if you only consider running low on MP to be a niche case caused only by death or Verraising, but not as a result of running your actual rotation for long periods, meaning it would eventually turn from a niche case into a part of the core rotation.
It would address the immediate problem of MP consumption, but it would not add to the core playstyle in any positive way.

Besides, if the worry is that MP would only become a concern to us after Verraise spam, wouldn't giving us another means to burst-return MP be a bad thing...?

[Shurrikhan]

While true -- particularly due to needing to invest MP into performing the melee combo before you could melee combo for MP, especially if they put the melee combo onto an MP cost with the removal of TP in ShB -- my intent with that statement was more geared toward the fact that melee comboing is something we already do. Simply tacking "also recovers X% of MP" onto any existing ability would not change in the slightest how we use the abilities, except possibly to encourage subpar gameplay; for instance, "just spam your unenchanted melee combo if MP gets low" sounds great if you only consider running low on MP to be a niche case caused only by death or Verraising, but not as a result of running your actual rotation for long periods, meaning it would eventually turn from a niche case into a part of the core rotation.
It would address the immediate problem of MP consumption, but it would not add to the core playstyle in any positive way.

Besides, if the worry is that MP would only become a concern to us after Verraise spam, wouldn't giving us another means to burst-return MP be a bad thing...?

1. So far we've been told to think of the removal of TP costs as 'Former TP costs being removed altogether, not just being switched to MP'. From what little we have to go off, it seems unlikely that RDM weaponskills will have any MP cost.
2. We currently melee in one and only one manner, with no more than 3 GCDs of flexibility. Using our melee aspect in a manner that would preempt, rather than merely restricted by, interactions with B/W Mana would be something we do not already do. At level 70, we have no melee play, as it will never be used except in the context of Verflare/Verholy. We have Verflare/Verholy, with 1.8 GCDs of mobile 5-yalm skills prerequisite to it.
3. I've not recommended tacking on MP rewards to any of our skills. I said only that it makes zero difference whether you reduce MP costs except to Verraise or increase regen (by whatever means) while increasing Verraise's relative cost, and thus recommended the simpler.
   I merely mentioned that if we actually had a legitimate melee component to the job to skillfully weave, we could use that to abate mana costs, say, taking higher risk at roughly even ppm in order to improve MP sustainability. Note that I also mentioned it'd still be a bad idea because you'd then be forcing would-be superior gameplay into niche requirements.
4. Adding to the core playstyle would be one of the few things it would accomplish. It'd just do so better if MP wasn't a concern, outside of Verraise usage, in the first place.
5. Better to have a period in which to badly sacrifice potency as to afford overuse of Verraise than have to maintain a DoT for MP sustainability, with little to no cohesion with the rest of your kit, on the chance that you'll need Verraise later, or to sluggishly recover from said overuse.

[Ariel_Valmont]

No DOT spells

[Archwizard]

No DOT spells

I honestly don't understand all the knee-jerk reactions to the concept of any DoT spells whatsoever for RDM. I've seen it here, on Reddit, in-game discussions...

First of all, RDMs have a significantly lower stat weight for Spell Speed due to Dualcast. DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, which would bring the stat weight up.
Sure, if we had more options for gearing and the ability to pick-and-choose what secondary stats we had access to then this could be argued as a bad thing, but as it is you only have one or two pieces at any given stat level and they're made with all caster DPS in mind, so either way we're gonna end up with Spell Speed we're not really using.

Second, our rotation is arguably the most simplistic in the game, given that it's almost entirely predictable "replace X when Y procs" repetition that you could theoretically macro to half as many buttons. Considering the only complaint I've actually managed to drag out of someone about DoT spells is simply that they "don't like maintaining them" -- itself a highly biased assessment, where entire threads are full of counter-suggestions specifically for them -- we could stand to fit in an extra timer to shake it up.
Bearing in mind, no matter what, the next expansion is going to happen and within the next 5 abilities we get, something will change the rotation as we know it (based on both history and a game company's general need to add more content to maintain interest), so "why do we need to shake it up, I like things as they are" is a moot argument.

Third, having a DoT is more on-target damage during movement phases, which (while slightly less so for RDMs because of Dualcast) is particularly a weakness for casters between reliance on cast times and lack of autoattack damage. The tradeoff of being "annoying" to maintain is well worth it.
The only reason to justify not having a DoT as a caster, in fact, would be to point to significant burst damage... except that BLMs easily have superior burst to us and still have a DoT.

Fourth, DoTs are opportunities. Thunder gives BLMs an influx of procs to shake up their rotation, I've seen suggestions to have them provide resources or reduce select cooldowns, etc. Loads of ways to make a DoT unique and even add to the gameplay beyond just being a timer, so I shouldn't hear "well we're unique for not having one" either because 'unique' on its own isn't the same as 'good'.
My only concern with adding a DoT would purely be avoiding dull Multi-Dotting periods in our already-dull AoE, and there are loads of ways to avoid that (spread effects like Bane, alternative versions like Thunder 2/4, making it an AoE DoT outright like Aero 3, even just limiting it to one effect as suggested).

[Shurrikhan]

I honestly don't understand all the knee-jerk reactions to the concept of any DoT spells whatsoever for RDM. I've seen it here, on Reddit, in-game discussions...

I think it mostly comes down to the obligation of play and just the fact that at this point... almost everyone else has one, so what need does RDM really have for it? I'd argue the warrant isn't that solid, as creating "unique" gameplay or niche is rarely the purpose of DoTs (only the class with far more DoTs than any other, and therefore greater ramp-up but also greater cleave and sustain, can really claim such).

First of all, RDMs have a significantly lower stat weight for Spell Speed due to Dualcast. DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, which would bring the stat weight up.

DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, but at a lesser rate, even, than Determination, iirc. Spell Speed still wouldn't be any better in itself; it's just that more of your damage would be GCD-based (or, less oGCD-based).

[Kabooa]

DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, but at a lesser rate, even, than Determination, iirc. Spell Speed still wouldn't be any better in itself; it's just that more of your damage would be GCD-based (or, less oGCD-based).

Speed stats are weighted on two scales. The actual increase, and the amount of damage it affects.

Using arbitrary numbers, let's say the example is is Determination is worth 1% damage and Speed is worth 1% haste, for the same rating.

Speed scales differently than flat damage%. Speed is parabolic increase. 10% Speed is worth 11% more damage (11 actions take 9.9 gcds, 10 actions take 10. 10% damage is always 10% damage. This is why if you've ever seen a black Mage get improved arrows while leyline is active, they skyrocket. 15% + 15% on a multiplicative return is somthing like 28% speed, or about -40%- more damage.

But currently you cannot get to stupid speed levels without heavy buff stacking.

Using Red Mage specifically, any if you completely geared for Spellspeed, I think the highest natural point you can reach via gear is about 14%. About 16% more GCD based damage.

Using non-echo #1 Chaos Red mage, this Red Mage has a damage distrubition of about 82% GCD, 18% OGCD.

But wait, it's more complicated than that. The weaponskill combo is obviously not affected by Spellspeed. While more spell speed means you do the combo more often, that combo is suffering as it does not directly benefit from spellspeed in terms of damage. That's nearly another 18% damage that doesn't benefit from Spellspeed - After all, the advantage is more GCDs, but these GCDs are unaffected by that.

So the 14% spell speed you built for only benefits 64% of a Red mage's damage. This spellspeed number is built at the detriment of other stats as well.

[Archwizard]

So the 14% spell speed you built for only benefits 64% of a Red mage's damage. This spellspeed number is built at the detriment of other stats as well.

Exactly why we should allow more sources of our damage to be affected by Spell Speed -- because ultimately even if you don't slot in Materia specifically for Spell Speed, you're going to end up with a base amount from gearing at any given item level, which would otherwise drag you down.
A DoT wouldn't be enough on its own, obviously, but it could be a start. Also affecting our weapon skills and perhaps (indirectly, like our weapon skills currently) even affecting our cooldown timers would be able to add to this, until our stat parity is comparable to other casters.

[Kabooa]

Exactly why we should allow more sources of our damage to be affected by Spell Speed -- because ultimately even if you don't slot in Materia specifically for Spell Speed, you're going to end up with a base amount from gearing at any given item level, which would otherwise drag you down.
A DoT wouldn't be enough on its own, obviously, but it could be a start. Also affecting our weapon skills and perhaps (indirectly, like our weapon skills currently) even affecting our cooldown timers would be able to add to this, until our stat parity is comparable to other casters.

Black mage is the only job that sees a near 1:1 return of Spellspeed compared to other jobs, and even then it's based more on the encounter. Crit / Det / DH become more useful as more movement is demanded, as higher spellspeed also means your movement related skills are less effective - You're getting less movement the faster your GCD rolls.

Red Mage, Summoner, and almost every other job has the same aversion to speed beyond very specific break points. The Black mage is the odd one out here, not the Red Mage.

[Shurrikhan]

Exactly why we should allow more sources of our damage to be affected by Spell Speed -- because ultimately even if you don't slot in Materia specifically for Spell Speed, you're going to end up with a base amount from gearing at any given item level, which would otherwise drag you down.
A DoT wouldn't be enough on its own, obviously, but it could be a start. Also affecting our weapon skills and perhaps (indirectly, like our weapon skills currently) even affecting our cooldown timers would be able to add to this, until our stat parity is comparable to other casters.

But, wouldn't it still make more sense to just fix spell speed itself than making a horrible stat only a tiny bit less horrible compared to others in arbitrary ways, at potential cost of gameplay, to one particular job? We're on the brink of allegedly "significant combat changes to the game" as is.

[Archwizard]

But, wouldn't it still make more sense to just fix spell speed itself than making a horrible stat only a tiny bit less horrible compared to others in arbitrary ways, at potential cost of gameplay, to one particular job? We're on the brink of allegedly "significant combat changes to the game" as is.

... and how do you propose that? Adjusting the %-value-per-point directly for everyone -- healers and casters alike -- to address its worth to a couple instant-spamming casters? Spell speed is a straightforward stat that's a staple to most video games, and I would argue if the concern is that only BLMs stand around enough to get full mileage from it, it's not the stat's fault but the design of the casters themselves for not being able to receive of it.
Like, let's say you're right and they adjust the weight of the stat. Will a 10% value per-point increase address any of the issues you're naming? 20%? 30+? Unless it makes it some godly overpowered stat, probably not, because you're arguing the issue is in the mechanical design ("less movement the faster your GCD rolls", bearing in mind that more accurately, you're getting more casts in the same allotted amount of time the faster your GCD rolls and can more easily clip movement phases) and not the amount of speed provided itself.
I mean hell, if it didn't affect the GCD it would be garbage for anyone with instants.
Mechanical issues need mechanical fixes. At the very least there needs to be some meeting partway within the design space of the class itself.

To be honest, "at potential cost of gameplay" in this context sounds like an awful lot of doomsaying on surprisingly little to go off of.