What if DNC is SHOMHOW a DPS?

[DamianFatale]

Eh...no. They are knights with a little bit of supplementary magic. Lore-wise Dark Knight does not even use magic AT ALL. He uses the darkness that dwells within him.

As I said, Paladins are as much magic knights as this iteration of Red Mage is a melee job. A proper magic knight would use magic-enchanted sword to deal damage with possibly using spells straight out here or there (Rune Fencer/Spellblade etc.).

Yes, I want a straight out caster tank. But that does have little to do with how Paladins in this game are not magic knights.

This. Magic Knight would be a job of its own.

[Seraphor]

Eh...no. They are knights with a little bit of supplementary magic. Lore-wise Dark Knight does not even use magic AT ALL. He uses the darkness that dwells within him.

As I said, Paladins are as much magic knights as this iteration of Red Mage is a melee job. A proper magic knight would use magic-enchanted sword to deal damage with possibly using spells straight out here or there (Rune Fencer/Spellblade etc.).

Yes, I want a straight out caster tank. But that does have little to do with how Paladins in this game are not magic knights.

You're talking semantics here.
There's a difference between a 'caster tank' which would be a mage who can take a hit, and a 'magic knight' aka the mystic knight or rune knight jobs.

In the latter sense, paladin and dark knight are 100% magic knights. The only difference here is element.
Mystic knight deals with the cardinal elements, paladin is 'holy element' and dark knight is 'dark element'. Obviously in FFXIV, elements only amount to aesthetic flavour.

[linay]

"But I don't like half of the classes in my chosen role, so let me explain why I want more." I don't like SCH. I'm not fond of the playstyle, I prefer big-number heals/regens to shields. So I get to count that out, right? So I only have two classes to pick from (that's how this works, right?)

I agree that tanks/healers could use more options, but this particular argument is just bad strawman, and you shouldn't use it because you don't need it to further your argument. At the very least, it would be more applicable if scholar has a different limit break effect than white mage or astrologian, wear different gears, and/or has different role actions. Otherwise, if everyone uses this type of argument, then a dark knight could ignore paladin/warrior and a black mage could ignore summoner/red mage. On DPS, you have three limit break effects, 3 different sets of role actions, and up to 5 different types of gears (at least for left side). Clearly the game provides some differentiation among DPS outside of individual jobs, so it's not equivalent to your scholar argument, which is only unique in the job level.

(And now that I've said that, it would be interesting to have different role actions/gears/limit break effects for healers/tanks, probably won't get me to work on healer, but still cool to see.)

[kikix12]

In the latter sense, paladin and dark knight are 100% magic knights. The only difference here is element.

With that logic, this game have nothing but caster classes. Every job can use Teleport and Return after all, so every job is a magic class, right?! Bards are also casters. Not only do they use some mystical energy to fuel their songs, but Foe's Requiem not only actually uses mana but also have a cast time. So they're not singing archers. They're spellcasters so they should be moved to "Caster DPS". Right?!

Semantics are important and difference between "magic knight" and a "knight with some supplementary magic" is large. Especially in high-fantasy setting where just about everyone can learn spells. Sure, you won't find anyone capable of becoming Thaumaturge (let alone Black Mage) or Conjurer (even less so for White Mage)...many people can't even cast Teleport and Return which is made clear by the story. But they can most likely learn lesser, non-combat spells that will help in everyday life. They just don't have the talent and mana reserves for the spells we, players, use. But huge amounts of them very much do (we're not the only members of the given guilds, after all, there are entire military units filled with them).

Magic knight is someone that uses magic at least equally to a weapon. Paladin does not do that...Dark Knight does not do that at all in the lore. The energy that Dark Knight uses is NOT MAGIC. It's not just a different element. It's an entirely different energy type. That it uses mana and that its skills fall under "spells" is just mechanical necessity. Otherwise you would need to call even monk a caster, despite it using Chakra and KI. Two energy sources that are the very antithesis to magic according to real life beliefs.

[LalaRu]

...full on caster tank...

That may be interesting. Hit, aggro, damage reduction, and cc all done on (very short range?) casting magic.
For a new tank class, it is really interesting.

[Eloah]

Until something proves otherwise, Red Mage in FFXIV is basically the Mystic Knight job equivalent, similar to the whole AST Time Mage deal, though not as obvious. There are two reasons for this. One is that their lore states as much, their whole premise is building up your mana and channeling it through your rapier for augmented "physical" attacks, which is what Mystic Knights do. Second, Red Mage isn't a stranger to that role at all. In several of the games, admittedly mostly spin offs, Red Mages have been given a function similar to that of a Mystic Knight. And FFXI proves as much, with their focus being Enhancement and Enfeebling Magicks. I'm not saying a Mystic Knight can't happen, again FFXI shows this, it's just that given how FFXIV is laid out, the possibility of one being added is very low.

Also this threads about Dancer, how did Mystic Knight get brought up?

[kikix12]

Until something proves otherwise, Red Mage in FFXIV is basically the Mystic Knight job equivalent, similar to the whole AST Time Mage deal, though not as obvious.

Um...Mystic Knight uses magic to enchant their weapon with the specific spell with which they attack then. Red Mage uses magic to cast it on their enemy directly. Mystic Knight does not use healing/revival magic. Red Mage does. Last but not least...Final Fantasy V had both Mystic Knight AND a Red Mage and the Red Mage we have is pretty faithful to Final Fantasy V's Red Mage. Though it's fencing skills have no precedent (technically "Souleater" is available in FFXII Zodiac Age's Red Battlemage license board), the class in Tactics at least have a high physical attack to supplement its magic in melee. The fencing skills in XIV on the other hand are not utilizing any magics. They are fencing techniques separated from the Red Magic. Hence they don't fit a spellblade-utilizing Magic Knight class.

Also this threads about Dancer, how did Mystic Knight get brought up?

Topic > Dancer should be a healer > Ranged DPS are the least represented role > Non-melee tanks and non-caster healers are least represented roles > Paladin and Dark Knight are Magic Knights > We're here.

Something along those lines.

[NorthernLadMSP]

People are mentioning full on magic caster tank. That would pretty much guarantee I'd switch to maining a tank role. Sadly, it probably won't ever happen.

[Eloah]

Um...Mystic Knight uses magic to enchant their weapon with the specific spell with which they attack then. Red Mage uses magic to cast it on their enemy directly. Mystic Knight does not use healing/revival magic. Red Mage does. Last but not least...Final Fantasy V had both Mystic Knight AND a Red Mage and the Red Mage we have is pretty faithful to Final Fantasy V's Red Mage. Though it's fencing skills have no precedent (technically "Souleater" is available in FFXII Zodiac Age's Red Battlemage license board), the class in Tactics at least have a high physical attack to supplement its magic in melee. The fencing skills in XIV on the other hand are not utilizing any magics. They are fencing techniques separated from the Red Magic. Hence they don't fit a spellblade-utilizing Magic Knight class.

I think you missed my point. Not sure how I could make it clearer though.

[Flatopia]

In-flavour everyone is a wizard of some kind. Even Warrior uses skills that use aether and are used via particular methods of calling upon their aether-based skills (read: spells)

Literally every job is a mage. But in gameplay terms I’d love to see how they’d handle rune-fencer or rune-knight or magic-knight whatever semantics is official these days. It’d be cool! Hope if we do we get the middle eastern turban look from 5.