Can we remove Tank Stance?

[Nihility]

Normally I would be against the idea but...

At this point raid tanks whine like crazy if you ask them to turn on tank stance even for a single mechanic and they can always do current savage content without ever using it at all. While at the same time actively mixing there sets to remove tank stats and wearing underlevel accessories for the purposes of stacking more damage stats
So it's kind of like... what's the point of it even existing. Mine as well do away with it for the sake of fighting skill bloat

[Dralonis]

Normally I would be against the idea but...

At this point raid tanks whine like crazy if you ask them to turn on tank stance even for a single mechanic and they can always do current savage content without ever using it at all. While at the same time actively mixing there sets to remove tank stats and wearing underlevel accessories for the purposes of stacking more damage stats
So it's kind of like... what's the point of it even existing. Mine as well do away with it for the sake of fighting skill bloat

Honestly, I feel like this stems from 1) It's not any fun or currently useful to use MOST of the time. it has it's uses. 2) It's not OPTIMAL. people want to optimize and will hate on anything that is not optimal or not fun. also because tanks simply don't need those stats. That's on their end for poor balancing. People can over gear it quite quickly that they can easily tank in DPS stance with nearly no setbacks, most of the time. Unless you die or something or healers need mana and not too worried about hitting enrage but more living to see the fight. I feel they may address this in 5.0 and sorta require tank stance a bit more or some form of it. 3) Theres fundamental issues with tanking. Simply increasing damage taken to them isn't fun. I mean, when I'm a dps and do a 24 man raid, I've had several times where tanks lost aggro and it just murders a few dps because tanks barely want to tank, just want to dps as a tank.

They very clearly have stated they want tanks to deal less damage since damage should not be their focus, but they make tanks rely a bit more on DPS for aggro so they don't need the stance as well as once you have enough gear, which you can kinda even do that just from crafted gear, it's really not that bad to tank it at certain parts. Especially since it's just scripted with little to no random damage so they can time the cool downs. There's very little need for Active mitigation.

so, if they want to fix tanks in a way they'd like, and talked about liking tanks, and tried especially with tank accessories at the beginning of SB, They'd need to make Tank stance more useful. With tank stance only skills that would be used for MT, decreasing the damage reduction of tank stance from 20% to 10%, reducing over all damage by a small amount so it evens out also so tanks needing the increased threat generation would be more beneficial so they can't stay in DPS stance the whole time and still be above DPS in aggro. They'd also have to lower aggro gained a bit from their dps rotation when they lower their damage. Currently, it's just shirk and switch. So aggro, on the MT, really isn't an issue at all with good tanks. In a raid situation. That's why they need something else to do. What they may do is reduce shirk down to 20% or 15% aggro shift to keep aggro building a bit more necessary.

If what they said about they want 2 MT classes and 2 OT classes, that would be gunbreaker+dark being the OT ones. Then possibly, their aim is for DPS tanks to be around.. 80% of what it currently is and MT's being a bit lower if they were to also be DPS tanks. Since that's kinda the appeal of a DPS tank. Currently, DRKs are supposed to be DPS tanks but.. they kinda messed up with it in 4.x

Now, these are all just my personal opinions on tanking and some suggestions as a whole that I'd be interested in seeing.

Get rid diversion or change it. Getting rid of it would fight skill bloat and it is really just a band aid fix skill since a ton of mediocre dps don't use it anyways and in fact, even have fun not using it so they can have a chance at pulling aggro off a tank. Easier to let them die from a players perspective, but from a game/developer perspective, to just reduce the chance of it happening by other fixes.

Increase aggro generation from tanks ranged attacks/charges. Give paladin a charge. Make that charge free of cost. What they may also do is have the DPS and tank rotations flip based on what stance you are in to reduce skill bloat.(How often do you see tanks even use threat rotation in a lot of content anyways? If they had some sorta synergy with tank stance skills, it could be made useful.) They also need to sorta change how openers work and have more classes better at it for tanks. Currently, warrior is just the defacto puller. Then again, Warriors are just great all around.

Merge a few defensive CD's that barely do much. Some they could even reduce it's effectiveness but reduce it's CD time.

Put spirits within and shelltron on the same button depending on your stance, Merge total eclipse with flash. Maybe roll reprisal into another new skill for all tanks. Then they could add a few more in 5.0 for something new. Like make fight or flight DPS stance only but in tank stance, give it a useful effect. Increase damage dealt maybe still, but not as much, also increase aggro generation.With the MT being in tank stance and these changes, threat really wouldn't ever be an issue or making anyone slightly worry like they do now. ESPECIALLY with pug groups.

Just with a lot of those changes I mentioned, that would get rid of 6+ buttons.

It would also make it more new tank friendly since there's probably people that want to tank, but aren't as well polished at tanking as others (Or even remotely decent) and it's really easy to see their mistakes and we all feel it quite heavily. Tanking can be quite intimidating to new people to it. I've had to teach several people and they are just scared to do it and are very sloppy at it, for quite awhile. Often why there's more DPS in general. It's easier to get the fundamentals of it and a lot of it is just positions and playing your rotation optimally.

They also need something more fun to work towards. Making the Gauge more useful. Currently, as a paladin, it's quite boring. Have the gauge maybe use a spender that's OGCD. Maybe give tank stance some utility as well.

On a fight standpoint, they need to make OT's have more unique jobs rather than just Co tank and dps when you aren't a tank imo. I like add fights Tbh and gives me a reason, when I dps, to use AOE combos. There's very few add fights that we get. I sorta liked that in binding coil of bahamut turn 4. I also enjoy split tank fights and splitting DPS. Omega M and F with resonance and is something I like to see every now and then. Something dynamic.

Then maybe have fights be a bit less scripted in damage. Random bursts of AoE damage, more random auto attacks that hurt, etc. Then reduce the damage needed for enrage timers since your healers may be healing a bit more and tanks would be doing less damage, but that's a given.

This probably could've been it's own thread.