Can we remove Tank Stance?

[Zumi]

I play a main tank, I think tank stance needs to be removed or reworked in the 5.0 battle system rework. Here is why in end game the tank who is pulling uses tank stance for about 1 enmity combo on the pull then switches to dps stance for the rest of the fight. The tank who did not pull never enters tank stance ever and is in dps stance the whole time. Endgame, EX fights, Savage and Ultimate are designed around having tanks use dps stance for almost the whole fight. Yes you need help from the party to make this smoother, dps should be using their aggro reducing abilities, the ninja should be using shadewalker.

Another thought is make it so the mobs actually hit hard enough that it is required to use tank stance. But my personal thought is just get rid of tank stances and bake enmity and damage reduction into a tank trait, because tank stance is not used outside of the pull and then only for 1 combo.

[Alexandre_Noireau]

To be honest, is more common to see DPS not using their cooldowns, AoE and aggro managment in general than tanks not using their tanking stance.
The game really need to reinforce the idea of aggro being something party wide and not exclusively Tank responsability.

[hynaku]

Diversion doesn't help at all if tank doesn't use a tank stance. I have used it and lucid dreaming. After 2 crit hits the mobs there tanking comes after to me. This was in normal level 70 dungeon. If they get rid of tank stance they need to add more dps skills that remove emity.

[shao32]

Diversion doesn't help at all if tank doesn't use a tank stance. I have used it and lucid dreaming. After 2 crit hits the mobs there tanking comes after to me. This was in normal level 70 dungeon. If they get rid of tank stance they need to add more dps skills that remove emity.

That's sounds more like that you tank was just doing single target combos instead of using aoes, if the tank do his job properly diversion and lucid will work as intented, if he wasn't hitting the mobs you will get the mobs no matter if he is using tank stance or not.

[Burningskull]

So... I have been playing tank for the last few days since they announced Gunbreaker to try and get use to tanking. I've been doing it on PLD since Gunbreaker looked like PLD without a shield. I also haven't done any high end raiding, nor do I plan to, so take this current opinion with a grain of... salt is considered a bad term now-a-days so.. Sugar?

I don't think they should remove Tank Stance.

I do however agree with an earlier poster that your DPS stance should just be tuned into your regular stance when you are not in tank stance. I also think the tank stance should be OGCD but have a cool down timer of maybe 10 - 30 seconds so you can't just pop it for an attack and then turn it back off immediately.

I also don't see a need for the damage penalty while in tank stance. You are already a tank and tend to have less potencies than DPS anyway so... And logically speaking tank stance is there to give you more hate and take less damage right? Well wouldn't hitting a mob harder make them hate you more than if you were tickling them? Although if you want to make it so you can't turn tank stance off immediately then maybe it would still need some kind of penalty to it so... who knows.

Any thoughts?

[whiskeybravo]

So... I have been playing tank for the last few days since they announced Gunbreaker to try and get use to tanking. I've been doing it on PLD since Gunbreaker looked like PLD without a shield. I also haven't done any high end raiding, nor do I plan to, so take this current opinion with a grain of... salt is considered a bad term now-a-days so.. Sugar?

I don't think they should remove Tank Stance.

I do however agree with an earlier poster that your DPS stance should just be tuned into your regular stance when you are not in tank stance. I also think the tank stance should be OGCD but have a cool down timer of maybe 10 - 30 seconds so you can't just pop it for an attack and then turn it back off immediately.

I also don't see a need for the damage penalty while in tank stance. You are already a tank and tend to have less potencies than DPS anyway so... And logically speaking tank stance is there to give you more hate and take less damage right? Well wouldn't hitting a mob harder make them hate you more than if you were tickling them? Although if you want to make it so you can't turn tank stance off immediately then maybe it would still need some kind of penalty to it so... who knows.

Any thoughts?

One of the main reasons I still defend tank stance. There are actually still moments when it's needed, or at least useful, especially for people who don't main tank.

The damage penalty really only makes sense if you think of it as cost/benefit. You are trading offense for defense (and threat) or vice-versa. Beyond that it doesn't really make a lot of sense, though.

[Gemina]

I also don't see a need for the damage penalty while in tank stance. You are already a tank and tend to have less potencies than DPS anyway so... And logically speaking tank stance is there to give you more hate and take less damage right? Well wouldn't hitting a mob harder make them hate you more than if you were tickling them? Although if you want to make it so you can't turn tank stance off immediately then maybe it would still need some kind of penalty to it so... who knows.

Any thoughts?

Getting rid of the damage penalty for tank stance is essentially the same as not having reduced enmity generation in DPS stance. Either one basically eliminates the need for any stance at all. Enmity generators multiply the potencies to the skills that qualify. They don't multiply the actual damage that comes out, but they do in terms of the hate they generate. Right now tanks can maintain enmity easily in DPS stance after acquiring it in tank stance. It's not a bad concept, but it's the min/maxing that tries to reduce the time in tank stance to next to nothing.

Devs are going to have to make a decision. They can eliminate tank stance, or reduce the enmity generated in DPS stance so it will force them to spend more time on the defensive. If they want tanks to be tanks, they need to do the latter. Otherwise they're just DPS with an inflated HP pool that trade not having to be in the spotlight for tank privileges such as survivability.

[Dralonis]

Getting rid of the damage penalty for tank stance is essentially the same as not having reduced enmity generation in DPS stance. Either one basically eliminates the need for any stance at all. Enmity generators multiply the potencies to the skills that qualify. They don't multiply the actual damage that comes out, but they do in terms of the hate they generate. Right now tanks can maintain enmity easily in DPS stance after acquiring it in tank stance. It's not a bad concept, but it's the min/maxing that tries to reduce the time in tank stance to next to nothing.

Devs are going to have to make a decision. They can eliminate tank stance, or reduce the enmity generated in DPS stance so it will force them to spend more time on the defensive. If they want tanks to be tanks, they need to do the latter. Otherwise they're just DPS with an inflated HP pool that trade not having to be in the spotlight for tank privileges such as survivability.

kinda why i get the feeling they will make DPS rotation and tank rotation reflect then add a button or 2 somewhere into that for maybe some variety, so tanks can't generate aggro outside of tank stance to that of normal tank levels and DPS stance is effectively like DPS and Offtank focus. Making MT be in Tank stance, but OT being in DPS. They also need to give OT's more of a job to do rather than just rotating tanks. They could make it to where tanks just take too much damage not in tank stance though that it would be better on healers mana if they were in tank stance but i'm not sure if they need to do that nor is that entirely fun.

Either way, I feel like the tank changes may be controversial to a lot of people, especially the ones that want to be those high dps tanks. Could be why they are holding off on info for changes until mid-may. I Just hope the changes over all will be better than current tank and how they are. Maybe more people would be willing to play them and less intimated by them/more fun to play.

Removing diversion and a lot of DPSers threat drop would be nice and get rid of buttons like they are wanting.

[Dralonis]

After NA's Fan fest, I doubt they will remove tank stance, but make it more interesting/involving to use and useful. Giving it a semi warrior treatment possibly. Shelltron being tank stance only and spirits within dps stance only, that kind of stuff. As well as I kinda feel they will remove diversion or just some threat drop from DPS in general to make enmity more of a tank job in general since they don't like the DPS focus tanks have. I feel they may nerf tank damage over all, then only reduce tank stance damage from 20% down to 15% or 10% to sorta balance it out and make tank stance not seem as bad to use.

When asked about tank accessories lacking STR and that BIS rings are crafted etc, he said he didn't like it and will be addressing tank DPS later.

Just a guess though. I don't think they will be reduced down to healer damage, but I think they want tank stance to be more appealing and useful because currently, it's barely needed. And not just simply making bosses hit tanks harder when not in tank stance, they gotta make some tank stance only stuff and utility tank stance only.

[Burningskull]

After NA's Fan fest, I doubt they will remove tank stance, but make it more interesting/involving to use and useful. Giving it a semi warrior treatment possibly. Shelltron being tank stance only and spirits within dps stance only, that kind of stuff. As well as I kinda feel they will remove diversion or just some threat drop from DPS in general to make enmity more of a tank job in general since they don't like the DPS focus tanks have. When asked about tank accessories lacking STR and that BIS rings are crafted etc, he said he didn't like it and will be addressing tank DPS later.

Just a guess though. I don't think they will be reduced down to healer damage, but I think they want tank stance to be more appealing and useful because currently, it's barely needed. And not just simply making bosses hit tanks harder when not in tank stance.

Those seem like good ideas. When I'm tanking I tend to have the mindset of, "Okay, I'm hear to tank. I need to keep agro and make it as easy on the healers as possible." Unless I'm off tanking in a 24man or a normal 8man I never leave tank stance. Yes I know that's frowned upon and that you should be in DPS stance sometimes but, I just don't like leaving tank stance when I'm there to keep hate.