Change to the ban system.

[Ilan]

That's generally why I don't curse unless I'm with friends. They do it too and pay no mind. I can curse to myself in real life all I want otherwise...and I do. lol Usually when people are being unintelligent.

Same here. If i have to vent i do it on VC or for myself but that doesn't happen often because most of the time i just sigh and roll with my eyes...over 4 years of final fantasy teach you that its not worth to get mad over people in the DF.

[Mizunoko]

Reporting someone for being "toxic" is a very vague report, from what i know. Most if not all GM's wouldn't do anything based on someone just being toxic as being toxic and breaking ToS can be two different things depending on the situation. GM's do NOT take outside or third party proof and they do internal investigations based on chatlogs mostly. I won't deny i have gotten mad at people in game too but i always make sure i never directly harass someone or grief anyone as those are the main things that get you behind GM bars. You cannot report someone for harassing someone else either (well you can make a report about anything, but unless its directly between you and others i doubt GM's will do anything). As far as i know you have to be the harassed person to make a valid report and have a GM consider looking into things in depth. You could say my view is biased as i have never been talked to by a GM so as far as i know i have no faults on my account, however with that being said i don't think that it's justifiable enough to change the ToS based on a minority of people with mental health issues as that in itself could cause massive issues for the games community as a whole. There has to be a middle ground where it's not too strict and not too lenient. Whether SE has that correct middle ground or not i cannot say, however as i myself have not gotten in any trouble so far seems to be about right since as far as i know i have never done anything that breaks the ToS.

The only time i think i would ask for a change or fix for something is if i noticed GM's acting unprofessionally and giving unprofessional or improper punishments to people that did not coincide with what they were supposed to be in terms of seriousness of the punishment or if they even deserved punishment or not. Unfortunately or Fortunately however you view it this isn't a court and you can't just argue a mental health case to get yourself out of trouble since GM's only act (as far as i know) based on proof. There is no jury, thus if you did wrong or not is usually clear as day to the GM and they should always be able to determine whether its a strike or not without having to be stuck in debate about it. This is all just my opinion based on what i know and do not know. I have reported people plenty of times and the only thing i think that i wish was changed is if we find out if the GM's actually do their jobs or not. You never know if someone actually gets banned or not and in a way i can understand why they can't have too much transparency with this, but at the same time how can we the community make sure the GM's are doing their jobs and being professional if we cannot see the consequences of a clear case and its results being investigated upon and taken action on.

[MizArai]

First off lets not assume that we all know that every person can control their actions. Just because you make this this statement does not make it a fact, just because you say it.

https://www.cdc.gov/features/tourett...ngs/index.html

"#3 People with Tourette cannot control their tics (movement or sound) even though they may want to. "

And yet people with tourettes can normally improve their symptoms with some combination of therapy and medication.

Secondly stop assuming that most addicts don't relapse.

https://drugabuse.com/library/drug-relapse/

"Recent drug relapse statistics show that more than 85% of individuals relapse and return to drug use within the year following treatment. "

So post some fact's not opinion's when you use phrases like "lost of addicts control themselves" sure if "Lots" is 15%.

I'm not sure how many recovering addicts you have known, but I've known quite a few personally. The ones I know who are still clean 6-7 years later didn't actually get clean the first time they tried, so they would have been part of that 85% at some point; however, they still wanted a better life for themselves and ended up putting in the work for themselves to get clean/ sober. Just because someone relapsed once doesn't mean they will again and it also doesn't mean that rules and laws should be changed just because it's hard for an addict to control their impulses and get/ stay clean.

Personally I think it's a reasonable request that after x amount of time (I'd prefer a year of good behavior, but it would be up to SE to think about what they might consider fair) one of your strikes would be removed from counting against you. So, warning, 24 - 72 hour ban (depending on what you did and how bad it was), 7 day ban, permmaban. You do something dumb, get a warning. Do something else dumb, get the short ban. You learn from your mistakes, after a year, you're back to getting a short ban if you mess up again. It would be a nice way to reward someone who is trying to improve their behavior.

[BillyKaplan]

I have an FC mate who found himself in a comparable situation.

What I find to be the most comparable here is that what your friend did was actually reportable. I sympathize with their situation as I've spent the most of last night carrying O12 myself on my healer. But no amount of abuse directed at you is justification for you performing it yourself. Your friend should've kept their mouth shut and took it, or left the instance. Report the lot of them at the end either way. But instead, they "snapped and lashed out". They brought this on themselves, similar to what OP did.

it's only okay when THEY do it!

I mean, your friend would've had to report them for anything to be done to them, and it doesn't seem like they did, so I don't understand what you're complaining about here. Both sides were in the wrong, one simply bothered to file that harassment report.

It would be a nice way to reward someone who is trying to improve their behavior.

I think the problem here is that there's no way of telling apart those who are improving, and those who simply didn't get caught. Oftentimes the difference between a ban and not-a-ban is someone bothering to file a report, and making it a proper one. So during that year, our offender could've still kept at it, but somehow got lucky enough and wasn't reported. A lot of stories end up in the DF thread instead of the GM's inbox, for instance, a lot of people aren't sure if it's reportable or are lied to, don't know how to file a report, etc.

[Penthea]

I think the problem here is that there's no way of telling apart those who are improving, and those who simply didn't get caught. Oftentimes the difference between a ban and not-a-ban is someone bothering to file a report, and making it a proper one. So during that year, our offender could've still kept at it, but somehow got lucky enough and wasn't reported. A lot of stories end up in the DF thread instead of the GM's inbox, for instance, a lot of people aren't sure if it's reportable or are lied to, don't know how to file a report, etc.

While this is true, it's actually not unheard of for people to have made successful appeals for bans and strikes based on long periods of good behaviour, or so much time has passed that it can be argued that the individual has since grown up.

Successful mmos stick around for a very long time. Already a lot of people who were teenagers when they started playing FFXIV are adults now. Kids do stupid things, but kids also grow up. If an adult wants to be a paying customer again SE are better off giving them the benefit of the doubt and taking their money, rather than assume people can't change or mature.

As for people on their last legs on their account wanting to get strikes removed, while a long period of time with good behaviour could actually be simply not getting reported, again it's in SE's interest to take their money if they feel a sufficient amount of trouble-free time has passed.

That being said I would assume the accounts in both cases would be flagged internally in case the person is repeatedly reported again.

Of course all this also heavily weighs on WHY a person is reported. If it's because they're very rude well that's not a very serious offence in the grand scheme of things. But if the reports were relating to things such as inappropriate behaviour towards a minor well then they're never getting their account back.

[BillyKaplan]

While this is true, it's actually not unheard of for people to have made successful appeals for bans and strikes based on long periods of good behaviour, or so much time has passed that it can be argued that the individual has since grown up.

I will concede all you said, but think it shouldn't be an automated process so much as something the GMs should take into account when deciding on punishment. Like you said, anything involving minors shouldn't get that sort of treatment at all, for instance.
And there would be a trade-off. An offense after a year, you get a repeat of the easier punishment instead of the harsher punishment, but if they repeat the offense again after a certain period, it actually bounces the penalty up because it shows your period of good behavior might've been a fluke or lack of reports more so than an honest attempt to do better.

[Penthea]

And there would be a trade-off. An offense after a year, you get a repeat of the easier punishment instead of the harsher punishment, but if they repeat the offense again after a certain period, it actually bounces the penalty up because it shows your period of good behavior might've been a fluke or lack of reports more so than an honest attempt to do better.

Yea you would never get a "clean slate" so to speak. Your account would permanently be flagged as having been troublesome at some point.

but think it shouldn't be an automated process so much as something the GMs should take into account when deciding on punishment

Oh god no. Something like this needs to be handled by a person. Completely agree.

[kikix12]

That doesn't work. There are point systems for dangerous driving in certain countries where if you get X points you lose your drivers license. If you do NOT get any points for some time, some of those points are rubbed off.

So, what happens?! Certainly not a sudden change of heart and realization that going 120 through town center is dangerous. People just wait for their points to disappear and then fill em right back up shortly after...because they never changed. They just wanted to avoid having to go through the process of getting the drivers license again.

And repeat criminals that are caught and fined/jailed?! If someone repeated some crime once, they are very likely to repeat it for years to come if given the opportunity. Some people really do commit crimes out of desperation and they end at "once". But those that commit crimes more than once either WANT to commit crimes (and only feel disgruntled they got caught) or cannot control themselves...And I can tell you that your victim won't feel any better finding out you assaulted/robbed or killed them just because you couldn't control yourself due to ailment of some sort.


The system is fine. So long as people don't get strikes for false charges, there is no need to remove them, be it "soft removal" or "hard removal" from the record. That's why there is little problem with bans in game (they actually do care to investigate and consider something), but there is a problem on the forums (you can be banned on forum for being reported more often than for doing something offensive, it seems).

[JackHatchet]

it is not hard to make me upset and start to say things I don't mean

Social policy is always in conflict between the concept that people have agency of their actions and that some people do not. For society to function, control must be utilized. Either you control yourself like a human, or you act like a dog and get muzzled.

It obviously gets more dicey when kids and mental-illness are involved. But believe me, that while this is all 'game stuff,' these kinds of issues happen in politics all the time. Actions and products get banned all the time, because someone can't control themselves. Eventually the system gets brought down to the lowest denominator and everyone is restricted, or the people who can't control themselves have to at least have the maturity to limit themselves. If you know you're prone to fights--don't get into situations where you fight. Just like if someone is prone to drunk-driving--don't drink. Please... control yourself, or the government or someone else will step in and not only control you, but everyone else.

[JackHatchet]

I didn't read all the comments, but I am in favor of a point degregation. That if you've made a mistake, but have been clean for a long period of time--that you're on the path. I'm always. ALWAYS in favor of rehabilitation over retribution.