SCH needs some nerfs

[Jinzhu]

I'd want to say that if you're going to continue the discussion, it'd be paramount to have an optimized WHM give data personally so we can see what's possible. Still, in regards to the fairy, I think that everyone's been saying FAIRY OP ever since Heavensward. Even with the numerous nerfs they've done to Embrace they still need to lower its potency even more. Let's also not forget the fact that Eos is still a heal machine with Whispering Wind and Fey Illumination available, one of which is basically a free Healing Increase Buff for high raid damage.

Whispering Dawn and Cov are strong but Fey Illum is kinda whatever since it doesn't affect oGCDs and thats all you really use. Not to mention running Selene with an AST is meta and the loss of Whispering Dawn and Cov feels nonexistent.

They should just get rid of Embrace and make Fey Union the only source of single target healing the fairy can do. Either that or make Embrace cost some type of resource like MP or nerf it to the ground making it heal for 100 potency (around 2k HP at current value) instead of it healing for 5k at current HP values and reaching even higher values (7-8k) under Rouse.

If they add a 100-200 MP cost to Embrace they could get rid of the auto heal function of it giving the job a higher skill ceiling as 100-200 MP is a lot in the current MP economy so you'd have to pick and choose where you would want to heal.

[MoroMurasaki]

These statistics are wrong and you can't use them because no one is optimizing on whm, whms aren’t running in perfect comps, the number of “good” whms is greatly diminished because most went to go play astro. WHM still beats SCH on a dummy fight and in an optimized group they would as well.

In what world is WHM fighting for the SCH spot? It's also the AST and WHM fighting for the spot.

All the criticism you gave was bad so there's really no need to answer to it. It's very clear you have no idea what you're talking about and you jumping on that statistic bandwagon just proved that even more.

The only real thing that's broken about SCH is their fairy which needs an obvious nerf to some extent. A full time regen throughout the fight that hits for more than an Aspected Benefic/Regen is too strong especially when it costs 0 resources to do. This is why you also have a SCH in the party. If SCH didn't have Embrace you would be seeing more and more WHM/AST combos.

"The statistics don't support my feelycrafting so they are invalid, surely the 99% WHM's are optimizing less than the 99% SCH's because reasons."

Okay champ. Sure thing lol

[KDSilver]

surely the 99% WHM's are optimizing less than the 99% SCH's because reasons.

because reasons : because no one is optimizing on whm, whms aren’t running in perfect comps
perfect comp : ast/sch

Read what people tell you.
There are less optimised WHM because optimal comp isn't including WHM.

[MoroMurasaki]

because reasons : because no one is optimizing on whm, whms aren’t running in perfect comps
perfect comp : ast/sch

Read what people tell you.
There are less optimised WHM because optimal comp isn't including WHM.

A WHM at 99% has optimized as much as it is possible to without literally changing jobs.

This is like saying to optimize on SAM just means playing MNK.

The lols continue...

[Erakir]

God, I told myself I wouldn't get into this thread. Oh well..

Goodness, WHMs were preferred for progression in Deltascape and Sigmascape.
(edit: Sorry, had Alphascape and Deltascape there before)

Were they not running in good enough comps to optimize for clearing then? Did every single good WHM magically switch to AST for farming after progression? The only argument one can make is a WHM comp cannot have both chain strat and cards, which is not nearly enough to overcome the hefty differential on the personal DPS level, which is funny coming from the healer with the empirically strongest personal DPS if left by themselves.

Scholar has been on top of the DPS game since forever, only now with ASTs competing after, surprise, a cast time change (Almost like mobility and clipping is a significant factor in damage, shocking I know). It's not some mythical "less optimization" thing. It's that WHM cannot easily sustain their DPS potential while performing their expected role, and the level of 'optimization' needed to help out (treat them like a BLM and make sure they never have to move, which is even more fun considering WHMs position themselves for Cure 3 usage often as they can judge best in the heat of the moment where the cast needs to go) is just an extra nail in the coffin - why bring a WHM that has to be coddled to do equal levels of damage? WHM DPS simply isn't as practical in raid settings. Period. They lose GCDs every minute to keep up regen, they can only move while spamming Aero 2, even Assize doesn't meet its DPS potential that is calculated on a dummy because you do not use it exactly once every minute. And its burst heal of Cure 3 must be hardcasted unlike similar oft used bursts of Indom and ES (the former of which costing Energy Drain damage, it's true). This only leads to extra time lost not casting if trying to preheal Cure 3 as best as possible. It has no WD or CU to be used instantly on everyone for high healing, and Asylum, while having potential - well, we know the problems with it in movement heavy fights and spread-heavy fights. Lots of hardcast Medica 2's as a result.

Trying to make WHM into a turret healer just so it can perform in damage is a headache not worth it for groups. And this would still, at best, simply equalize its personal DPS output with the others. Not exceed the others damage as it should since it brings no raid DPS buffs. Equal it. At least when you coddle a BLM their damage shows. WHMs at the top of their damage game are about as optimized as they're gonna get before being a literal hindrance from not performing their healing duties. Maybe, MAYBE there's magic ASTs out there that would crush it compared to other 99% WHMs and do....5% more DPS. Don't act like those 99% WHMs out there right now are somehow 10% worse on damage than any super god pro WHMs that went AST.

If you want an easy way to buff WHM damage right now, just give it a mana dump so it can take advantage of having so much MP with refresh and thin air (bonus points if it generates no aggro). If you want an easier way, lower Aero 2's ticking potency and increase its initial potency to 100, though that would just be a very small increase. Hell I don't care, let Asylum do damage like a shadowflare.

Meanwhile, SCH dummy DPS includes 3x Energy Drain every 45s, which they don't get to do in raids due to AF charge usage on things like Indom, and their DPS still comes out easily ahead in raids.

But the real elephant in the room is clear as day.

It's Noct's abysmal showing, making them a very sad replacement for SCH. And why is that? It's not like Noct AST's capabilities change *that* much from Diurnal - they still have ES, CU, etc etc...and we're already all in agreement that AST pulls its weight as Diurnal with their abilities, right? Meanwhile, the combined DPS of WHM/SCH is clearing Omega fine enough, so it's not just the WHM DPS driving the comp to such low numbers. So if AST ain't that bad...It's almost like SCH is a powerhouse at what it does and is too good to not have in a comp.

WHM buffs to overcome this would have to be drastic and I fear would put AST in a horrible spot, because - well, Noct isn't doing good compared to SCH, and then we'd go right back to SCH/WHM for days, continuing this AST WHM war. WHM, after all, isn't doing too horribly. Its clear rates alongside SCH support this. It's just weaker and less sought after than Diurnal right now, but as I've said numerous times it's not broken bad yet. This is why solely trying to buff WHM a ton to make WHM/AST better than it currently is is very dangerous.

I seek ways to improve Noct's showing without overtuning Diurnal. There are methods they could use for this, though it all hinges on adding more differences when using Noct sect. For instance, Synastry needs some love in raids - as Noct, why not let it transfer a small amount of AoE healing or let it transfer some portion of ability healing? Noct not having any bit of sustain on tanks compared to regen/Diurnal Asp Bene/Fairy is unfortunate.

I do seek buffs to WHM to pull their damage up as they are lagging behind Diurnal (as well as other things), but it's only one of two issues. WHM vs Diurnal is one, Noct vs the world is another. It simply moves us back to 4.3 balance, which was very arguably better balance despite the lack of QOL for ASTs. Not to mention we all seek changes to the sad lily system and so many other things - there's so many threads at this point...

The other issue is making WHM/Noct AST a better composition, and doing so in a way that doesn't make WHM completely overshadow Diurnal in the process - WHM, after all, doesn't have any sort of stance to toggle to make them play differently with a SCH or AST. It's a harder issue to tackle, and there's only three ways to really do it:

1) Nerf SCH's capabilities. I don't care if people here don't like it or think SCH isn't overpowered compared to the content or anything. It's an option.
2) Make heavy changes to Noct's playstyle and capabilities so it can better compete with SCH for that raid slot. Do not overtune Diurnal in the process as that destroys WHM, just as overbuffing WHM would destroy Diurnal.
3) Encounter/mechanic design. As pointed out earlier, SCH's weaknesses aren't really brought into the limelight in raids due to how scripted everything tends to be. We've had this for the base game and two expansions, it's unlikely to really change much. But it is an option to weaken SCH without actually nerfing the job itself. Of note, look to extreme primals and how much more forgiving they are with vulnerability damage that doesn't outright kill players, etc. These are places where WHM strength of picking up the pieces and having a no-CD Cure 3 can come in more handy than they do in Savage. These things don't really help Noct out much, but it would accomplish the result of bringing the balance closer.

One of these or any combination of them would bring Noct up, relatively speaking. You can't stop a meta from existing, but you can certainly bring non-meta comps into more parity than they currently are.

Edit: I should add, if we do get a 4th healer that obviously presents opportunities too to upset scholar from its nigh-guaranteed raid slot, though I'd really hate for Noct to just be left in the dust forever.

[Ghishlain]

God, I told myself I wouldn't get into this thread. Oh well..

Goodness, WHMs were preferred for progression in Deltascape and Sigmascape.
(edit: Sorry, had Alphascape and Deltascape there before)

Were they not running in good enough comps to optimize for clearing then? Did every single good WHM magically switch to AST for farming after progression? The only argument one can make is a WHM comp cannot have both chain strat and cards, which is not nearly enough to overcome the hefty differential on the personal DPS level, which is funny coming from the healer with the empirically strongest personal DPS if left by themselves.

Scholar has been on top of the DPS game since forever, only now with ASTs competing after, surprise, a cast time change (Almost like mobility and clipping is a significant factor in damage, shocking I know). It's not some mythical "less optimization" thing. It's that WHM cannot easily sustain their DPS potential while performing their expected role, and the level of 'optimization' needed to help out (treat them like a BLM and make sure they never have to move, which is even more fun considering WHMs position themselves for Cure 3 usage often as they can judge best in the heat of the moment where the cast needs to go) is just an extra nail in the coffin - why bring a WHM that has to be coddled to do equal levels of damage? WHM DPS simply isn't as practical in raid settings. Period. They lose GCDs every minute to keep up regen, they can only move while spamming Aero 2, even Assize doesn't meet its DPS potential that is calculated on a dummy because you do not use it exactly once every minute. And its burst heal of Cure 3 must be hardcasted unlike similar oft used bursts of Indom and ES (the former of which costing Energy Drain damage, it's true). This only leads to extra time lost not casting if trying to preheal Cure 3 as best as possible. It has no WD or CU to be used instantly on everyone for high healing, and Asylum, while having potential - well, we know the problems with it in movement heavy fights and spread-heavy fights. Lots of hardcast Medica 2's as a result.

Trying to make WHM into a turret healer just so it can perform in damage is a headache not worth it for groups. And this would still, at best, simply equalize its personal DPS output with the others. Not exceed the others damage as it should since it brings no raid DPS buffs. Equal it. At least when you coddle a BLM their damage shows. WHMs at the top of their damage game are about as optimized as they're gonna get before being a literal hindrance from not performing their healing duties. Maybe, MAYBE there's magic ASTs out there that would crush it compared to other 99% WHMs and do....5% more DPS. Don't act like those 99% WHMs out there right now are somehow 10% worse on damage than any super god pro WHMs that went AST.

If you want an easy way to buff WHM damage right now, just give it a mana dump so it can take advantage of having so much MP with refresh and thin air. (bonus points if it generates no aggro). If you want an easier way, lower Aero 2's ticking potency and increase its initial potency to 100, though that would just be a very small increase. Hell I don't care, let Asylum do damage like a shadowflare.

Meanwhile, SCH dummy DPS includes 3x Energy Drain every 45s, which they don't get to do in raids due to AF charge usage on things like Indom, and their DPS still comes out easily ahead in raids.

But the real elephant in the room is clear as day.

It's Noct's abysmal showing, making them a very sad replacement for SCH. And why is that? It's not like Noct AST's capabilities change *that* much from Diurnal - they still have ES, CU, etc etc...and we're already all in agreement that AST pulls its weight as Diurnal with their abilities, right? Meanwhile, the combined DPS of WHM/SCH is clearing Omega fine enough, so it's not just the WHM DPS driving the comp to such low numbers. So if AST ain't that bad...It's almost like SCH is a powerhouse at what it does and is too good to not have in a comp.

WHM buffs to overcome this would have to be drastic and I fear would put AST in a horrible spot, because - well, Noct isn't doing good compared to SCH, and then we'd go right back to SCH/WHM for days, continuing this AST WHM war. WHM, after all, isn't doing too horribly. Its clear rates alongside SCH support this. It's just weaker and less sought after than Diurnal right now, but as I've said numerous times it's not broken bad yet. This is why solely trying to buff WHM a ton to make WHM/AST better than it currently is is very dangerous.

I seek ways to improve Noct's showing without overtuning Diurnal. There are methods they could use for this, though it all hinges on adding more differences when using Noct sect. For instance, Synastry needs some love in raids - as Noct, why not let it transfer a small amount of AoE healing or let it transfer some portion of ability healing? Noct not having any bit of sustain on tanks compared to regen/Diurnal Asp Bene/Fairy is unfortunate.

I do seek buffs to WHM to pull their damage up as they are lagging behind Diurnal (as well as other things), but it's only one of two issues. WHM vs Diurnal is one, Noct vs the world is another. It simply moves us back to 4.3 balance, which was very arguably better balance despite the lack of QOL for ASTs. Not to mention we all seek changes to the sad lily system and so many other things - there's so many threads at this point...

The other issue is making WHM/Noct AST a better composition, and doing so in a way that doesn't make WHM completely overshadow Diurnal in the process - WHM, after all, doesn't have any sort of stance to toggle to make them play differently with a SCH or AST. It's a harder issue to tackle, and there's only three ways to really do it:

1) Nerf SCH's capabilities. I don't care if people here don't like it or think SCH isn't overpowered compared to the content or anything. It's an option.
2) Make heavy changes to Noct's playstyle and capabilities so it can better compete with SCH for that raid slot. Do not overtune Diurnal in the process as that destroys WHM, just as overbuffing WHM would destroy Diurnal.
3) Encounter/mechanic design. As pointed out earlier, SCH's weaknesses aren't really brought into the limelight in raids due to how scripted everything tends to be. We've had this for the base game and two expansions, it's unlikely to really change much. But it is an option to weaken SCH without actually nerfing the job itself. Of note, look to extreme primals and how much more forgiving they are with vulnerability damage that doesn't outright kill players, etc. These are places where WHM strength of picking up the pieces and having a no-CD Cure 3 can come in more handy than they do in Savage. These things don't really help Noct out much, but it would accomplish the result of bringing the balance closer.

Edit: I should add, if we do get a 4th healer that obviously presents opportunities too to upset scholar from its nigh-guaranteed raid slot, though I'd really hate for Noct to just be left in the dust forever.

Hi, welcome to the warfront! *Waves*

As always, I'm in agreement and enjoy reading what you write.

Not too much else I want to change though I want to extend on this a little with my own thoughts.

I am hoping that the implementation of a fourth healer will help change the healer balance and also rework identities. If S-E is going to be dead set on a "main healer" and "mitigation healer", I am hoping for the following:

• Two healers suitable for each "role" - this means the two healers will be balanced against each other and not against all three other healers, thus resulting in less overall salt.
• Two healers of the opposing roles are more synergetic with each other than when paired with the other two healers. As an example, if Dancer was a new mitigation healer released in 5.0, Dancer's kit should compliment AST more than WHM or SCH. And then SCH's kit should compliment WHM more than Dancer and AST. This way we're looking more at healing pair dynamics more than individual kits.

Also, just to add one more point regarding content design:
Here are the current 99th percentile for Ultimate - WHM leads 2,422 with SCH tailing behind at 2,129 (I won't include AST as there are only 3 recorded values at this time, so it'll skew the results). This shows that WHM can hit that higher value as they are designed to do, we just need to push towards SCH's weaknesses more to make it happen.

I just hope that S-E doesn't interpret the WHM numbers for Ultima to be "well, WHM doesn't need help" when Alphascape values show otherwise.

[Erakir]

Hi, welcome to the warfront! *Waves*

Hiya Ghish! If I'm in a healer foxhole, I'm glad it's one with you around! While I've got you here, can I ask how you to teach a fellow healy-lala to do the quote "click to show" code? I should be able to find it, but I'm failing miserably.

That aside, totally in agreement with you when it comes to adding a 4th healer. It's very possible in such a scenario to do a WHM/AST vs SCH/DNC (or whatever combination), having each of those in a smaller competition for their one healing slot. I'm always in favor of synergistic combinations, but either of those two situations occurring would be an alright step, and an easier one to make adjustments to down the road.

I am sincerely hoping we do not end up with one cemented healer and three healers fighting over the last slot. Absolute worst outcome!

Also thanks in regards to the Ultimate info. I don't really keep up with that at all, but it's further proof that if content design shifts, WHM is certainly able to pull ahead - it's less about making WHM squeeze out more damage and more about SCH not being able to squeeze as much as it does in these cases, and it's totally a valid method.

By the way, in regards to my previous post: Before anyone reading wants to go dig up my logs to try and discredit my points as a terrible healer, let me be the first to say I'm very aware of my strengths and weaknesses as a WHM, and I'm very aware of my static's strengths and weaknesses. I've got a new cohealer entirely new to raid healing FFXIV, and the damage/healing tabs will show the results of this - feel free to dig further back into deltascape and sigmascape to look at things with the opposite kind of healer (a succor-heavy scholar). I am far from the world's most fantastical WHM. Fortunately, that is not a requirement for balance and design discussions, nor does being one immediately qualify one as a paragon of class design.

The last time I saw a world first player talking class design to buff AST early into HW all they could come up with was cloning WHM abilities~

[MoroMurasaki]

WHM, after all, isn't doing too horribly. Its clear rates alongside SCH support this.

While I've found all of these subsequent posts lovely I just wanted to tack on here that for Alphascape right now the clear rates for SCH/AST/WHM are about 45k/31k/27k respectively. This is even more dramatic if you focus in on o12s where WHM has just over 1.5k kills versus AST at 2.7k and SCH scratching at 4k. SCH is closer to trippling WHM clear rates than WHM is to even catching up to AST in the final raid of the expansion.

I realize neither of you was arguing against this but I just wanted to make it clear that there is no evidence that WHM is doing fine in any capacity in Alphascape, it's lagging behind terribly actually the further into the tier you get.

[Ghishlain]

Hiya Ghish! If I'm in a healer foxhole, I'm glad it's one with you around! While I've got you here, can I ask how you to teach a fellow healy-lala to do the quote "click to show" code? I should be able to find it, but I'm failing miserably.

=D Hoy/

So the BBC codes for hiding the text is [.HB] and [./HB] without the periods (so I don't hide the text, lol). Alternatively it's this button on the advance posting UI:

That aside, totally in agreement with you when it comes to adding a 4th healer. It's very possible in such a scenario to do a WHM/AST vs SCH/DNC (or whatever combination), having each of those in a smaller competition for their one healing slot. I'm always in favor of synergistic combinations, but either of those two situations occurring would be an alright step, and an easier one to make adjustments to down the road.

I am sincerely hoping we do not end up with one cemented healer and three healers fighting over the last slot. Absolute worst outcome!

Also thanks in regards to the Ultimate info. I don't really keep up with that at all, but it's further proof that if content design shifts, WHM is certainly able to pull ahead - it's less about making WHM squeeze out more damage and more about SCH not being able to squeeze as much as it does in these cases, and it's totally a valid method.

Let's hope S-E learned their lesson regarding AST when they release the fourth healer. /pray

And also about content design, though I guess if we made content too punishing we'd loss the raid scene again like what happened with Gordias / Midas. It's kind of a shame that it takes a hard fight like Ultima to put a bit of spot light onto WHM in this capacity. Hopefully we'll see some solid kit adjustments come 5.0. I'd kill for a second swiftcast on WHM..

By the way, in regards to my previous post: Before anyone reading wants to go dig up my logs to try and discredit my points as a terrible healer, let me be the first to say I'm very aware of my strengths and weaknesses as a WHM, and I'm very aware of my static's strengths and weaknesses. I've got a new cohealer entirely new to raid healing FFXIV, and the damage/healing tabs will show the results of this - feel free to dig further back into deltascape and sigmascape to look at things with the opposite kind of healer (a succor-heavy scholar). I am far from the world's most fantastical WHM. Fortunately, that is not a requirement for balance and design discussions, nor does being one immediately qualify one as a paragon of class design.

The last time I saw a world first player talking class design to buff AST early into HW all they could come up with was cloning WHM abilities~

I'm kinda surprised no one has called me out for pitiful SCH percentiles yet, to be honest xD

Also on the topic of random AST redesigns, here's an obsolete post I made two years ago regarding an AST redesign if you're bored. lol.

While I've found all of these subsequent posts lovely I just wanted to tack on here that for Alphascape right now the clear rates for SCH/AST/WHM are about 45k/31k/27k respectively. This is even more dramatic if you focus in on o12s where WHM has just over 1.5k kills versus AST at 2.7k and SCH scratching at 4k. SCH is closer to trippling WHM clear rates than WHM is to even catching up to AST in the final raid of the expansion.

I realize neither of you was arguing against this but I just wanted to make it clear that there is no evidence that WHM is doing fine in any capacity in Alphascape, it's lagging behind terribly actually the further into the tier you get.

We WHM's still aren't as bad as BLM, SAM, MNK, RDM, MCH, or DRK! *Coughs loudly*

With that being said and on a more serious note, as much as I'd like to see some love come in WHM's direction, I hope S-E can first address the giant elephant in the room regarding healer identity and similarities.

[Erakir]

=D Hoy/

So the BBC codes for hiding the text is [.HB] and [./HB] without the periods (so I don't hide the text, lol). Alternatively it's this button on the advance posting UI:

Oh gosh thank you <3 I saw that HB button and my mind just thought "What in the world is HB?" Shoulda given it a shot or googled that one I suppose!

As for everything else you and Moro mentioned, won't find me arguing~ Cheers!