So about Summoner...

[Capn_Goggles]

This perception of RDM being "useless" is just weird. And frankly, even if they did buff the class, unless it does become meta people will continue to have this perception of RDM only being a prog job

Of course people will still have the perception of it being a prog job, the important thing is that it would be a perception rather than something enforced by the actual job design, and part of that involves giving Red Mage something to offer that isn't spamming resurrection spells. Embolden is a complete joke, and the reason I didn't include it in the discussion is because it provides such a minimal increase in rdps even when used to its absolute best effect.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Of course people will still have the perception of it being a prog job, the important thing is that it would be a perception rather than something enforced by the actual job design, and part of that involves giving Red Mage something to offer that isn't spamming resurrection spells. .

It's only a perception now. This isn't gordias, content is not tuned to the point where your composition REALLY matters. Any reason why RDM is not played right now is that perception. And buffing the class will honestly not change that, it will just "enforce" that RDM is THE class to take for prog because it will be even better and then will be disregarded afterwards because everyone circle jerks our speedrun meta.

Embolden is a complete joke, and the reason I didn't include it in the discussion is because it provides such a minimal increase in rdps even when used to its absolute best effect

Embolden is easily 400-500 rDPS with proper alignment, which is comparable to pretty much every individual raid buff in the game aside from Trick Attack or the rng of Balance cards. Hypercharge, Brotherhood, Chain Strategem, Battle Litany, etc., Embolden offers about the same (or close to) rDPS as any one of these buffs. In what world is that a "complete joke"?

[Wilbow]

Embolden is easily 400-500 rDPS with proper alignment, which is comparable to pretty much every individual raid buff in the game aside from Trick Attack

...And THERE YOU GO. RDM does NIN level pDPS while providing considerably less rDPS (trick is 600 DPS unoptimized, up to 900 DPS optimized). Never mind that NIN can use its enmity reduction tools alongside shirk to squeeze out even more DPS from the tanks by making them avoid using their emnity combos and generally makes content much less stressful to deal with.

I can do a similar analysis with BRD, or DRG, or MNK, or SMN, or BLK...

But muh verraise, right?

You're fighting a losing argument on this. The numbers aren't on your side. I'm sorry.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

...And THERE YOU GO. RDM does NIN level pDPS while providing considerably less rDPS (trick is 600 DPS unoptimized, up to 900 DPS optimized). Never mind that NIN can use its enmity reduction tools alongside shirk to squeeze out even more DPS from the tanks by making them avoid using their emnity combos and generally makes content much less stressful to deal with.

But muh verraise, right?

You can try to be cute and say "the numbers aren't on your side" but the problem here is those numbers don't matter to begin with (and I know what the numbers are for every class in this game). That DPS disparity literally means nothing because RDM is a niche DPS class with a quasi-healer element. You and the people arguing here just fail to see this. It's not really a losing argument when (what a news flash) RDM has still been unchanged for an entire year while these complaints have been ongoing for sometime. So when the next balance patch happens and RDM STILL doesn't see any changes, what will the argument be then?

[Wilbow]

So when the next balance patch happens and RDM STILL doesn't see any changes, what will the argument be then?

The same as they were last patch? That tends to happen when you don't fix something.

If you remember, RDM was one of the highest DPS a year ago. Most DPS have received noticeable buffs since then (practically all, really), and it's caused RDM to be shoved down to the bottom by proxy.

The lack of DPS wasn't an issue before. Now it is.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

The same as they were last patch? That tends to happen when you don't fix something.

If you remember, RDM was one of the highest DPS a year ago. Most DPS have received noticeable buffs since then (practically all, really), and it's caused RDM to be shoved down to the bottom by proxy.

The lack of DPS wasn't an issue before. Now it is.

They were "higher" because other dps classes were undertuned and needed buffs. RDM was actually overpowered back then because of it too. And most of those dps changes occurred long ago, so this dps disparity has existed since at least the start of 4.1 (honestly even longer because DRG/MCH were already meta before that). So 9 months across two raid tiers AND two ultimate fights?

I don't care if people think verraise isn't "useful" after prog (also a dumb argument. Unless your group is capable of one shotting every fight every single week without deaths, which I'm willing to bet isn't the case, then that raise is useful. Only a very small percentage of us speedrun, that's the only place where that raise is ACTUALLY useless), it should be among the bottom in dps when you can raise an entire party and brings essentially a cure 1 on demand.

[Dualgunner]

it should be among the bottom in dps when you can raise an entire party and brings essentially a cure 1 on demand.

1) You cannot raise an entire party, mp pool won't support it. 2) Even if you could the party is done with that run anyway at that point unless you're all gods of recovery, and assuming you are, how'd the whole party die in the first place? Closest you can get is raising a healer and having them Healer LB3, but if that's your criteria, then Summoner can also raise a whole party.

I get you're exaggerating. Fine, you can raise maybe four times in quick succession, perhaps five or six if you have Lucid up at that time. I'll cede, that's most of the party. That's also 12 gcds of raising people that the RDM also has to survive. Then you're useless for a while because your resource pool is completely exhausted, and Lucid is burned already; whole party's resource pool is gone, aggro's in the dumps because of those five or six were the tanks, and by now everybody just wants to wipe and restart anyway.

And yay cure 1. I bet the healers are stoked that a DPS has a tier of spell they laugh about and pretend doesn't exist in lieu of cure 2/stone.

[Wilbow]

They were "higher" because other dps classes were undertuned and needed buffs. RDM was actually overpowered back then because of it too. And most of those dps changes occurred long ago, so this dps disparity has existed since at least the start of 4.1 (honestly even longer because DRG/MCH were already meta before that).

> Yes, RDM used to be overpowered at the start of SB. This was overcorrected pretty dramatically. They're as bad in the underperforming side now as they used to be in the overperforming side back then.

> Also, you act as if this long period of not making changes somehow justifies the neglect. SE has a track record of being too slow to adjust jobs that are clearly in need of it. See: DRG magic defense in 2.x, AST in early HW, WHM in late HW, DRK in SB, etc. This doesn't mean that there isn't an issue. I want to be in the universe you're in, where BLK and RDM mains haven't been critical of how SE has handled their job in SB.

Also, answer me this: If RDM is supposed to be SO GOOD AT PROG, why are SMN just as common in world firsts of the newest ultimate? And if you can be SMN and be just as good at prog, why would you ever bother investing in RDM? But you know, the ultimates just aren't HARD ENOUGH to make prog important enough for long enough, or something.

[Capn_Goggles]

You can try to be cute and say "the numbers aren't on your side" but the problem here is those numbers don't matter to begin with.

Oh, well there we have it I guess, the numbers don't matter. So it wouldn't matter if Black Mage did as much damage as Ninja and nothing else changed, right? Naturally, because DPS numbers don't matter, it wouldn't be a big deal if Dragoon could deal the exact same personal DPS as Samurai.

Perhaps there's some sort of middle ground between 1% parsers and people who only log in to idle in Limsa where job balance can be important without necessarily requiring absolute parity.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Oh, well there we have it I guess, the numbers don't matter. So it wouldn't matter if Black Mage did as much damage as Ninja and nothing else changed, right? Naturally, because DPS numbers don't matter, it wouldn't be a big deal if Dragoon could deal the exact same personal DPS as Samurai.

Perhaps there's some sort of middle ground between 1% parsers and people who only log in to idle in Limsa where job balance can be important without necessarily requiring absolute parity.

DPS numbers matter relative to what else the class brings to a party. When it comes to RDM, no the numbers don't matter. It's utility is already too strong. It may be niche and situational "where" that strength shows, but when it does it's disgusting.