So about Summoner...

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Of course it is always the smn mains that say the other casters are fine.. lol
Have you not played Red Mage for end game? It really is as bad as most players have been saying so in this thread.

Yes I have, and I do hardcore progression with the class. I'm telling you why RDM won't/can't receive a significant buff right now. Everyone knows there's a dps disparity between RDM and the other 2 casters, but that disparity is the trade off for the utility RDM brings. People can argue all day that "well verraise doesnt matter after prog!" and it doesn't matter because that utility exists. I'm not blaming RDM players for wanting a change, but I blame them for blindly ignoring the fact that they have one of the most OP utility abilities in the game but want to throw numbers to say "well we're not strong enough".

[Capn_Goggles]

I'm not blaming RDM players for wanting a change, but I blame them for blindly ignoring the fact that they have one of the most OP utility abilities in the game but want to throw numbers to say "well we're not strong enough".

Because being able to raise people isn't useful outside of initial progression and pubs, and players want their job to be viable at all times and not just when people are dropping like bricks in the water. Being able to spam raise is useful, but it comes at the expense of having a useful DPS kit in a game where, frankly, the only things that matter are damage output and your ability to better others' damage outputs.

[Megguido]

Because being able to raise people isn't useful outside of initial progression and pubs, and players want their job to be viable at all times and not just when people are dropping like bricks in the water. Being able to spam raise is useful, but it comes at the expense of having a useful DPS kit in a game where, frankly, the only things that matter are damage output and your ability to better others' damage outputs.

Cause, yeah, progression is definitely not a big part of raiding. /s
It's actually the case. All jobs are viable. We cleared Sigmascape savage just fine with a RDM. With a SAM and a BRD (and no DRG). If people don't mess up, enrage timers aren't even close. And if people mess up, we can actually chain raise and try to push as far as possible. Please tell me how you raise two people in the middle of Trine as SMN.

If you don't want to destroy your DPS when raising as a SMN, you have to keep Swiftcast and use it when you're either not in DWT or in Bahamut phase. RDM's uninterruptible burst window is like 7s long (melee combo + flare/holy). SMN's is 16s (or 36s every other minute). Also SMN's pet can be killed by some AoEs (often AoE tankbusters like Hyperdrive, if the pet is too close to the tank after moving for example), and Swiftcast is very handy to summon it back.

I mean, there are several possibilities to answer players' call about RDM:
- Boost their damage to SMN's lvl, and you get a SMN with an easier rotation and a chain-raise
- Boost their damage and nerf their raise, so you basically have two identical jobs. SMN and RDM would both have the same damage, the same raise, the same party buffs (yay embolden and radiant shield)
- Give them a party boost to make its damage contribution higher

What makes RDM special IMO, is its ability to raise people so fast, the straightforward rotation, and the ability to burst very easily (ghost cheese on O5S works wonders with a RDM for example).

Sounds like DRK "mains" that complain WAR is doing everything better than DRK.

[TelosNox]

Please tell me how you raise two people in the middle of Trine as SMN.

Two ppl are raised by the healers, as SMN I should be 3rd. So I see no problem here.

[Capn_Goggles]

Sounds like DRK "mains" that complain WAR is doing everything better than DRK.

Probably because WAR does everything better than DRK, as does PLD

Cause, yeah, progression is definitely not a big part of raiding. /s

It's only a part of raiding, and RDM goes from useful to *nearly* useless in the transition, where other jobs still remain competitive barring "selfish DPS", because the only two things that matter in this game are your damage and your ability to make other people do more damage. The apex of the argument is that RDM stays almost exclusively as an ultra-casual training-wheels job for its lifespan when everybody else has traded theirs in by 60 at the latest, so while everyone is pulling stunts on their mountain bikes RDM is still stuck doing circles on flat pavement, and the reason for this is because its only utility is foam-padding when people are still learning the fight.

If you don't want to destroy your DPS when raising as a SMN, you have to keep Swiftcast and use it when you're either not in DWT or in Bahamut phase.

You are correct that SMN has a greater opportunity cost for resurrecting people than RDM, but if you're slamming out resurrections like RDM is capable of you probably aren't terribly concerned with your output at that point. Furthermore, the usefulness of swiftcast on SMN is fairly exaggerated, because while it's certainly handy to use and very easy to turn into a DPS gain, SMN only really needs it to resummon their pet and for resurrection, and the former is not nearly as big of a deal with the insane reduction in cast time it got.


Please understand, however, that the criticism for RDM in this regard is not an attempt to downsize what it can already do, but to expand what it yet cannot do. I am of the opinion that every job should have some justification for being brought along to every fight, even if some jobs are more suited for it than others.

[Megguido]

Probably because WAR does everything better than DRK, as does PLD


It's only a part of raiding, and RDM goes from useful to *nearly* useless in the transition [...] .

From personnal experience, we spent way more time on progression than on "farming" (cause yes, killing 4 bosses once a week can hardly be called "farming"). We spent 3 hours a day, 3 days a week on progression, and about 3 hours once a week on actually taking down O5S to O8S. The progression is a part of raiding, but it's far from being a small one.

That's not the appropriate topic, but it really looks like people are underestimating DRK's defensive kit. But hey, I'm not against another buff on my main job :^). 30% damage reduction on a 60s cooldown isn't enough, pls SE.

Please understand, however, that the criticism for RDM in this regard is not an attempt to downsize what it can already do, but to expand what it yet cannot do. I am of the opinion that every job should have some justification for being brought along to every fight, even if some jobs are more suited for it than others.

That's a good point, and it is exactly what makes balancing jobs hard. Because balancing jobs around a single content can be very dangerous. Even if SE succeeds to make every job and every composition doing nearly the same level of damage for (e.g.) UwU, what if some jobs get completely out of control in lower level or lower skill content ? It would also be an issue if RDM is doing nearly twice the damage of a MNK at lvl 50, as a consequence of lvl 70 buffs to make it on-par with SMN.

Though I'm severely biased on the matter, since SMN is my main DPS job. Though it could be doing less damage than a RDM, I would be playing SMN nonetheless.
From my point of view RDM is kinda badly designed. Easy-to-play jobs are cool and all, but having nearly half of your offensive GCD spells being copies of each other... I expected more about white and black mana than just press black button if gauge is white, press white button if gauge is black (I know there's more intricacies about RDM, but a good part of its gameplay is aroud that).

[Capn_Goggles]

snip

Progression is most definitely a part of raiding, and certainly an important part, but again, I'm merely stating that RDM is outright useless outside of it regardless of how good it is in progression. Unfortunately, no small part of this is precisely because it's so good in progression, and another part of the problem is that it's competing against jobs with universally desired utility as opposed to situational utility.

Also, DRK's defensive kit is only a portion of its issues. The main problem is that it has to work harder to do the kinds of things that come to warrior and paladin near-effortlessly, and in many cases it's still inferior due to conflicting or outright bad design. Dark Arts spam, stance-locked abilities/effects, a complete lack of burst, and living dead being nearly useless at best are all glaring issues with its toolkit, without even getting into its bizarre MP misalignment and completely gutted kit. It's not nearly as dramatic as the list would imply, but they are major issues that need to be addressed regardless.

[Megguido]

Progression is most definitely a part of raiding, and certainly an important part, but again, I'm merely stating that RDM is outright useless outside of it regardless of how good it is in progression. [...]

Also, DRK's defensive kit is only a portion of its issues. The main problem is that it has to work harder to do the kinds of things that come to warrior and paladin near-effortlessly, and in many cases it's still inferior due to conflicting or outright bad design. Dark Arts spam, stance-locked abilities/effects, a complete lack of burst, and living dead being nearly useless at best are all glaring issues with its toolkit, without even getting into its bizarre MP misalignment and completely gutted kit. It's not nearly as dramatic as the list would imply, but they are major issues that need to be addressed regardless.

Now that's some hyperboles.

RDM is great in progression and with "not-top-level-players". Because you can prog and clear O8S while being somewhat a casual player. Then, when you clear the content consistently, RDM doesn't become "useless", it becomes "not optimal".

On DRK side (lulz), the main issue IMO is people complaining its too easy to play because of the 1-2-3 spam meme, but can't play it properly because it's actually more complicated than that. Dark Arts is only spammed in the opener, overall it's about 6 DA a minute. SMN is using like 20 Ruin spells a minute and is far from being broken. If you mindlessly spam DA, then you'll eventually run out of MP, and you're doing things wrong anyway.

This argument "but I have to press more buttons to do the same thing than XXX" is really terrible imo. Someone on this topic already mentionned that SE doesn't balance jobs on their difficulty. If I'd want a tank job than press only two buttons to do damage, I'd be a WAR main. DRK is the only high-cpm fast-paced tank, please don't dumb it down to WAR's level. If I follow your reasoning, how come RDM should have as much damage as SMN while being easier to play and less buttons to push, and no pets to manage ?

a complete lack of burst

I played both PLD and DRK this tier, and PLD's DPS is streamlined as much as DRK's. I must say that WAR's burst is so great, noodle mode for 80s after unleashing your IR. DRK can actually manage its own "burst" windows, pooling ressources for Trick Attacks for example. It's not because you don't have a "10s +50% dmg buff" that you don't have any burst.

and living dead being nearly useless

First consider that both WAR and DRK need healing after their invuln. It's just that WAR doesn't require 100% HP back. You won't leave WAR at 20% HP after Holmgang cause it will die after the next auto.
Second, LD is longer, and its duration only starts when dropping to 1 HP, not when you actually push the button.
Third, we definitely live in a world where Lustrate, Exogitation, Essential Dignity, Benediction are a thing. If two healers cannot bring 65k HP back in 9 full seconds, there's an issue with said healers, not Living Dead.

Overall, learn more, play smarter, and you'll see that DRK's kit isn't as gutted as you think it is.

Also, sorry for being out of topic.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

Because being able to raise people isn't useful outside of initial progression and pubs, and players want their job to be viable at all times and not just when people are dropping like bricks in the water. Being able to spam raise is useful, but it comes at the expense of having a useful DPS kit in a game where, frankly, the only things that matter are damage output and your ability to better others' damage outputs.

Well this isn't gonna happen. A raid comp in this game is only 8 players, meaning a max of 8 classes. Some classes WILL be left out and considered "sub optimal". People need to understand and accept this. They also need to accept that the design direction SE took with RDM is WHY it's damage has to be balanced where it is, and why it will be viewed as a "lets just take this for progression" job. I also think the rebalancing of savage content is another reason why this is viewed as an issue. If we had Midas difficulty with savage where most players would still be progressing, we wouldn't be having this argument because RDM would be "useful" for a significant time.

Regardless I still hold to the belief that if you're only doing savage content and you've been able to clear without any trouble, then you shouldn't be focused on how "useful" a dps kit is. Any class can clear savage content easily

[Wilbow]

Well this isn't gonna happen. A raid comp in this game is only 8 players, meaning a max of 8 classes. Some classes WILL be left out and considered "sub optimal". People need to understand and accept this. They also need to accept that the design direction SE took with RDM is WHY it's damage has to be balanced where it is, and why it will be viewed as a "lets just take this for progression" job. I also think the rebalancing of savage content is another reason why this is viewed as an issue. If we had Midas difficulty with savage where most players would still be progressing, we wouldn't be having this argument because RDM would be "useful" for a significant time.

Regardless I still hold to the belief that if you're only doing savage content and you've been able to clear without any trouble, then why are you focused on how "useful" a dps kit is. Any class can clear savage content easily

I can't even agree with a single sentence here.


> A group limit of 8 doesn't mean only 8 jobs can be balanced at a time. If jobs have balanced pros and cons, then different comps will be equally viable for a raid. It may be that different jobs play better with certain other jobs by how they cover each other's weaknesses, and that's fine. This is just common sense, imo.

> You can't sit there and say being good for progression only is okay when we have a handful of jobs that get to be good for prog and farm. It is especially apropos here considering that SMN was brought along just as much as RDM in Ultimate prog and will get to be considerably more useful in farm as well.

> As for the rest...rebalancing of savage has nothing to do with this. People want to feel like they aren't holding their group back with their job, that they aren't being carried by default because of their job crystal. Whether the content is on prog or on farm, it doesn't matter. And yes, we've seen this before. AST in early HW and WHM in late HW both suffered the exact same issue as RDM now (maybe a little worse), despite the fact that savage got gradually easier to prog as HW went along. It changed nothing. Nobody wants a comparative liability, in prog OR farm.

TL;DR: We don't have to accept imbalance as an inevitability and say nothing. If something is borked, it's better to point it out and hope they fix it rather than to say nothing and know that they won't.