So about Summoner...

[xxPheNoMeNa]

This is the part that gets me.
Verraise is a pretty awful string to dangle why. Why not make them desirable, both to play and team up with, on other merits?

In what way should it be desirable though? It's already desirable for prog, for it to be "desirable" after that it would need to be strong enough to be meta or close to it (and making it that strong with it's verraise utility untouched would actually destroy the balance of casters). And if it's not strong enough to be meta (or in the position SMN is in right now), it won't ever be desirable after prog because the community as a whole will continue to believe that our level of optimization applies to them and they'll copy it (and this cycle will repeat).

[Wilbow]

Embolden is easily 400-500 rDPS with proper alignment, which is comparable to pretty much every individual raid buff in the game aside from Trick Attack

...And THERE YOU GO. RDM does NIN level pDPS while providing considerably less rDPS (trick is 600 DPS unoptimized, up to 900 DPS optimized). Never mind that NIN can use its enmity reduction tools alongside shirk to squeeze out even more DPS from the tanks by making them avoid using their emnity combos and generally makes content much less stressful to deal with.

I can do a similar analysis with BRD, or DRG, or MNK, or SMN, or BLK...

But muh verraise, right?

You're fighting a losing argument on this. The numbers aren't on your side. I'm sorry.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

...And THERE YOU GO. RDM does NIN level pDPS while providing considerably less rDPS (trick is 600 DPS unoptimized, up to 900 DPS optimized). Never mind that NIN can use its enmity reduction tools alongside shirk to squeeze out even more DPS from the tanks by making them avoid using their emnity combos and generally makes content much less stressful to deal with.

But muh verraise, right?

You can try to be cute and say "the numbers aren't on your side" but the problem here is those numbers don't matter to begin with (and I know what the numbers are for every class in this game). That DPS disparity literally means nothing because RDM is a niche DPS class with a quasi-healer element. You and the people arguing here just fail to see this. It's not really a losing argument when (what a news flash) RDM has still been unchanged for an entire year while these complaints have been ongoing for sometime. So when the next balance patch happens and RDM STILL doesn't see any changes, what will the argument be then?

[Dualgunner]

So is your argument "X hasn't seen any changes, therefore it doesn't need any changes?"

[Wilbow]

So when the next balance patch happens and RDM STILL doesn't see any changes, what will the argument be then?

The same as they were last patch? That tends to happen when you don't fix something.

If you remember, RDM was one of the highest DPS a year ago. Most DPS have received noticeable buffs since then (practically all, really), and it's caused RDM to be shoved down to the bottom by proxy.

The lack of DPS wasn't an issue before. Now it is.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

So is your argument "X hasn't seen any changes, therefore it doesn't need any changes?"

No my argument is, plenty of us at the top of level have repeatedly said the class is fine, casual players enjoy the class too and the class has seen no real balance changes since release. A select portion of the community (im guessing midcore RDM players that are just upset their class isn't highly desired) has continuously complained about "the balance" of casters and crying for buffs and yet nothing has changed (and rightfully so).

When BLM had issues, notice how BLM players across pretty much all skill levels agreed that there were problems with the class and it prompted a change. Meanwhile with RDM there isn't a collective agreement about it (well, we agree that it has weak overall damage output but other people don't see the issue with that).

[Capn_Goggles]

You can try to be cute and say "the numbers aren't on your side" but the problem here is those numbers don't matter to begin with.

Oh, well there we have it I guess, the numbers don't matter. So it wouldn't matter if Black Mage did as much damage as Ninja and nothing else changed, right? Naturally, because DPS numbers don't matter, it wouldn't be a big deal if Dragoon could deal the exact same personal DPS as Samurai.

Perhaps there's some sort of middle ground between 1% parsers and people who only log in to idle in Limsa where job balance can be important without necessarily requiring absolute parity.

[Dualgunner]

No my argument is, plenty of us at the top of level have repeatedly said the class is fine, casual players enjoy the class too and the class has seen no real balance changes since release.

You could have just said "Yes, it is" or even "Yes, it's part of my argument." Considering the rest of the argument is an appeal to authority and popularity.

When BLM had issues, notice how BLM players across pretty much all skill levels agreed that there were problems with the class and it prompted a change. Meanwhile with RDM there isn't a collective agreement about it (well, we agree that it has weak overall damage output but other people don't see the issue with that).

What I suppose we midcore RDM are saying is, it's kind of funny how of all the jobs in the game, it's the fourth dps slot that's expected to be able to hotswap jobs on the fly while everyone else stays the job they main. No NIN is expected to be able to also perform at the top levels of MNK, like a top RDM would also be expected to perform as a top SMN. (or I mean, just main SMN at this point; you get the same levels of meaningful progression outside of the bleeding edge world firsters, who even still probably use SMN instead.)

[xxPheNoMeNa]

The same as they were last patch? That tends to happen when you don't fix something.

If you remember, RDM was one of the highest DPS a year ago. Most DPS have received noticeable buffs since then (practically all, really), and it's caused RDM to be shoved down to the bottom by proxy.

The lack of DPS wasn't an issue before. Now it is.

They were "higher" because other dps classes were undertuned and needed buffs. RDM was actually overpowered back then because of it too. And most of those dps changes occurred long ago, so this dps disparity has existed since at least the start of 4.1 (honestly even longer because DRG/MCH were already meta before that). So 9 months across two raid tiers AND two ultimate fights?

I don't care if people think verraise isn't "useful" after prog (also a dumb argument. Unless your group is capable of one shotting every fight every single week without deaths, which I'm willing to bet isn't the case, then that raise is useful. Only a very small percentage of us speedrun, that's the only place where that raise is ACTUALLY useless), it should be among the bottom in dps when you can raise an entire party and brings essentially a cure 1 on demand.

[Maero]

So cute how smn mains try and speak for the Red Mage community and always state Red Mage is fine when that is so completely false.
Also a majority of the RM community does not feel that it is fine but have been calling for changes to embolden along with damage buffs and other stuff for sometime now. SE is simply not listening but choose to make changes (even how minor it is) to every other job.

Also, Red Mage was not really overpowered it was a glitch in which they had fixed actually. And really it should be bottom dps? Smn and Bard both bring far better utility and are ahead in damage by a pretty significant amount. I have said what i wanted to say, i will not quote people to try and argue points when it is clear some do not have their facts straight or really know what they are talking about for the subject of this thread