So about Summoner...

[Wilbow]

Embolden is easily 400-500 rDPS with proper alignment, which is comparable to pretty much every individual raid buff in the game aside from Trick Attack

...And THERE YOU GO. RDM does NIN level pDPS while providing considerably less rDPS (trick is 600 DPS unoptimized, up to 900 DPS optimized). Never mind that NIN can use its enmity reduction tools alongside shirk to squeeze out even more DPS from the tanks by making them avoid using their emnity combos and generally makes content much less stressful to deal with.

I can do a similar analysis with BRD, or DRG, or MNK, or SMN, or BLK...

But muh verraise, right?

You're fighting a losing argument on this. The numbers aren't on your side. I'm sorry.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

...And THERE YOU GO. RDM does NIN level pDPS while providing considerably less rDPS (trick is 600 DPS unoptimized, up to 900 DPS optimized). Never mind that NIN can use its enmity reduction tools alongside shirk to squeeze out even more DPS from the tanks by making them avoid using their emnity combos and generally makes content much less stressful to deal with.

But muh verraise, right?

You can try to be cute and say "the numbers aren't on your side" but the problem here is those numbers don't matter to begin with (and I know what the numbers are for every class in this game). That DPS disparity literally means nothing because RDM is a niche DPS class with a quasi-healer element. You and the people arguing here just fail to see this. It's not really a losing argument when (what a news flash) RDM has still been unchanged for an entire year while these complaints have been ongoing for sometime. So when the next balance patch happens and RDM STILL doesn't see any changes, what will the argument be then?

[Wilbow]

So when the next balance patch happens and RDM STILL doesn't see any changes, what will the argument be then?

The same as they were last patch? That tends to happen when you don't fix something.

If you remember, RDM was one of the highest DPS a year ago. Most DPS have received noticeable buffs since then (practically all, really), and it's caused RDM to be shoved down to the bottom by proxy.

The lack of DPS wasn't an issue before. Now it is.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

The same as they were last patch? That tends to happen when you don't fix something.

If you remember, RDM was one of the highest DPS a year ago. Most DPS have received noticeable buffs since then (practically all, really), and it's caused RDM to be shoved down to the bottom by proxy.

The lack of DPS wasn't an issue before. Now it is.

They were "higher" because other dps classes were undertuned and needed buffs. RDM was actually overpowered back then because of it too. And most of those dps changes occurred long ago, so this dps disparity has existed since at least the start of 4.1 (honestly even longer because DRG/MCH were already meta before that). So 9 months across two raid tiers AND two ultimate fights?

I don't care if people think verraise isn't "useful" after prog (also a dumb argument. Unless your group is capable of one shotting every fight every single week without deaths, which I'm willing to bet isn't the case, then that raise is useful. Only a very small percentage of us speedrun, that's the only place where that raise is ACTUALLY useless), it should be among the bottom in dps when you can raise an entire party and brings essentially a cure 1 on demand.

[Dualgunner]

it should be among the bottom in dps when you can raise an entire party and brings essentially a cure 1 on demand.

1) You cannot raise an entire party, mp pool won't support it. 2) Even if you could the party is done with that run anyway at that point unless you're all gods of recovery, and assuming you are, how'd the whole party die in the first place? Closest you can get is raising a healer and having them Healer LB3, but if that's your criteria, then Summoner can also raise a whole party.

I get you're exaggerating. Fine, you can raise maybe four times in quick succession, perhaps five or six if you have Lucid up at that time. I'll cede, that's most of the party. That's also 12 gcds of raising people that the RDM also has to survive. Then you're useless for a while because your resource pool is completely exhausted, and Lucid is burned already; whole party's resource pool is gone, aggro's in the dumps because of those five or six were the tanks, and by now everybody just wants to wipe and restart anyway.

And yay cure 1. I bet the healers are stoked that a DPS has a tier of spell they laugh about and pretend doesn't exist in lieu of cure 2/stone.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

1) You cannot raise an entire party, mp pool won't support it. 2) Even if you could the party is done with that run anyway at that point unless you're all gods of recovery, and assuming you are, how'd the whole party die in the first place? Closest you can get is raising a healer and having them Healer LB3, but if that's your criteria, then Summoner can also raise a whole party.

And yay cure 1. I bet the healers are stoked that a DPS has a tier of spell they laugh about and pretend doesn't exist in lieu of cure 2/stone.

MP pool is ~14.4k, that alone is enough for 3 raises without any worry. Super-ethers can give you another 2300 MP (and they're useful for RDM, I actually used them during UWU prog). That's enough mp to easily sustain 4 raises, now factor in Lucid and the possibility of refresh, you can definitely get an entire party. Granted that statement wasn't made so much for realism as it was just showcasing how "strong" it can be. The fact that you can easily raise 3 people in quick succession (which is definitely a situation that can happen in a raid and is recoverable) is ridiculous. I've actually cleared on pulls like that.

[Wilbow]

They were "higher" because other dps classes were undertuned and needed buffs. RDM was actually overpowered back then because of it too. And most of those dps changes occurred long ago, so this dps disparity has existed since at least the start of 4.1 (honestly even longer because DRG/MCH were already meta before that).

> Yes, RDM used to be overpowered at the start of SB. This was overcorrected pretty dramatically. They're as bad in the underperforming side now as they used to be in the overperforming side back then.

> Also, you act as if this long period of not making changes somehow justifies the neglect. SE has a track record of being too slow to adjust jobs that are clearly in need of it. See: DRG magic defense in 2.x, AST in early HW, WHM in late HW, DRK in SB, etc. This doesn't mean that there isn't an issue. I want to be in the universe you're in, where BLK and RDM mains haven't been critical of how SE has handled their job in SB.

Also, answer me this: If RDM is supposed to be SO GOOD AT PROG, why are SMN just as common in world firsts of the newest ultimate? And if you can be SMN and be just as good at prog, why would you ever bother investing in RDM? But you know, the ultimates just aren't HARD ENOUGH to make prog important enough for long enough, or something.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

> want to be in the universe you're in, where BLK and RDM mains haven't been critical of how SE has handled their job in SB.

BLM mains "had" an issue (well a few since SB release), and they've mostly been corrected. I think a lot of BLM mains are ok with where the class is right now. It's not desired because the community circle jerks this "lul no utility" meme but it's in a good place relative to SMN.

These "RDM issues" appear odd because some of you keep saying the issues are bad yet others at the highest level of play say there's not. Those same players acknowledge the dps disparity that exists too, but they understand that it's the cost of the utility RDM brings and they're ok with that. It's a weird class with a weird niche, but it's extremely strong for its purpose. The community is too fixated on damage output.

[Dualgunner]

The community is too fixated on damage output.

This is a game where healer and tank optimization means pushing as much damage out of them as possible. This is a game where the common meme is that healers and tanks are just blue and green DPS. This is a game where among healers, damage disparity is one of the biggest debates between them, because healing is so stupidly powerful in the game that even in the most taxing of situations you'll still have space to do more damage.

Yes, the community is fixated on damage output. The whole game is, too.

[Capn_Goggles]

BLM mains "had" an issue (well a few since SB release), and they've mostly been corrected. I think a lot of BLM mains are ok with where the class is right now. It's not desired because the community circle jerks this "lul no utility" meme but it's in a good place relative to SMN.

Yeah, it's in a good place compared to SMN, in that it offers the same DPS while having no utility and being harder to play. "Things that tell you somebody mains a job while barely playing or understanding others" is my favorite jeopardy category. "Lul no utility" is a pretty good criticism when all of the jobs that have guaranteed slots are coincidentally all utility jobs.

If BLM received no further changes I could tolerate its current position, but it's not where it needs to be when there are still glaring problems with the job.