Got kicked Right before boss.

[Lilseph]

The most hilarious thing is: the kick was indeed unnecessary.

Everything happens for a reason, they say. If they wouldn't have kicked him, we wouldn't have this thread right now filled with people teaching OP how to tank. So I think it was a positive outcome after all.

[Thoosa]

Imo I think it was right to kick the tank. If it had been Aurum Vale, a group might have been more lenient? I don’t know. :P

But I would imagine by the time the group reached the last boss, they’d had had enough of being aggrod and/or possibly dying to it multiple times and just wanted to finish the dungeon because they feared the possible constant wiping on the last boss and that it had taken ages to get to the end anyway?

They must have also shown some leniency to get that far - would we think it was reasonable that a level 50 tank doing that low level dungeon to be able to fly through it with no issues? I’d say yes

[Granyala]

Imo I think it was right to kick the tank. If it had been Aurum Vale, a group might have been more lenient? I don’t know. :P

Probably less lenient.

Aurum is a pain, esp if you are an old school hobby tank like me. Back then I didn't like mass pulling and I actually waited for a few seconds for mobs (esp patrols) to get into position for controlled pulls.

Despite never losing aggro I was eventually called an idiot and kicked. That taught me that it's apparently better to rage-face AoE pull (and risk losing aggro on a mob or two) than have the audacity of waiting for 10 seconds for a patrol to get out of range.

[Nedkel]

The opposite side, in the "Tells from the Duy Finder"-thread stated that basically everyone was tanking.
OP sadly never answered my question wether or not they used flash, so we're left with a bit of guesswork here - with the two best points being him saying that he was "using Shield Lob and that level 50 skill" and that "he was taking most of the damage". Both dont sound to re-asuring to me that he indeed used flash and was tanking properly. You cant really hold hate on a group of mobs, or on a single mob (...more likely though) by only throwing your shield at them - partly because you'll run out of TP to fast to keep that up.

And who said anything about kicking him for "poor dps"? You're the first person to bring this up now - everyone so far has simply been stating that its a reasonable expectation of a level 50 tank - no matter if it took them a day, a week or a month to reach that level - to perform the basics of their job. Which is to hold aggro on all mobs.
A tank doesnt has to "spam AoE all the time" - specially considering Flash deals no damage. A tank has to spam AoE enough to keep hate on all mobs. Or, in other words: A tank has to tank.

Bit of a personal excuse here, that you can ignore if you wish:
Paladin is actually my main-job. When I started this game I picked gladiator because, you know, I like swords. I had never played an MMO before. I had no idea what a tank was or what a tank has to do. Granted, I was lucky enough to have friends explaining some very basic stuff to me (even things like "Yes, you're allowed to roll on loot from chests. Specially when it is for your job!"). I certainly wasnt perfect - and I outright sucked at dodging. Back then the servers were still overseas and my lag was quite bad. On top of me being quite bad myself. I recall this incident in Brayflox Longstop NM. I couldnt dodge the dragon breath of the last boss. Just couldnt get out of it. The scholar couldnt heal through the poison - and you're not supposed to do that. We wiped a couple of times til they removed me, rightfully, from that party. Given my performance we couldnt kill that boss.
Today its way, way easier to compensate for someones lack of skill or lack of trying or paying attention - and I'm not talking about dealt damage, I'm talking about dodging, tanking... heck, past level 58 my paladin can compensate the lack of a healer with Clemency - and I had to do that quite a few times already.
But non of that is "right".t
Just because three other people can compensate for your lack of whatever doesnt mean thats okay.

We dont know exactly what happened here. Maybe he was pulling only 1 group and the others were tanking, because they were pulling it themselves.
It happen to me several times, people pulled one or two groups on my face, because they want to force speed up the run.
He made a good decision of not taking a hate from these mobs, and i believe they were dying in progress of doing so, making the run slower than it supposed to be.

1 Flash and circle of scorn is more than enough to hold the mobs aggro before they die, and he said he used both of them, so problems with holding aggro should not be the case here, if anything its them pulling stuff on their own and you could say it by the kaldea post telling dungeons could be done without a tank, should we have any more questions here?
I can bet a buck they were pulling on their own.
We dont see any reasonable explanation of any of the sides, so both sides are guilty for that bad run.
So far the only plea against OP is that he used shield lob all the time, so they complained about his performance, so about his dps, probably having less impact on the run than them messing up mechanics or typing the keyboard.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Sorry in advance for the book.

They didn't carry him through.. they kicked him at the last moment wasting his time.... which they probably felt he was doing to them. Again... spiteful

I've played this game since 2.0 and NEVER had a group as bad as you're outlining. Sure I see poor players now and then, but not to the extent people on the forums make out... and I play a lot. I've seen only one of these ice mages people reference, and that was in 2.0.

Your definition of "carrying" and mine are clearly different. I was literally in that dungeon and it felt like I was carrying the tank.

We didn't waste his time. He was wasting ours. 3 > 1. Not to mention, it isn't a waste since he came on here and posted about it and hopefully learned some good advice.

beating the dungeon is what matters it's a game.

you are in the wrong for kicking even though you made it through the dungeon just fine.

This is ridiculously inaccurate. You don't even need a tank or a healer for these dungeons. You don't even need 4 people. You may draw a line at merely participating is good enough, but for me I expect you to be a part of a team, not dragging us down due to ignorance.

Exactly, i would of been less frustrated if they would of just kick early mid dungeon, but instead you waste 25 minutes of my personal time just to fool me, that is a extremely rude move on your end, if your gonna kick somebody do it stop wasting other peoples time, it's not rocket science.

You wasted 25+ minutes of our time because you didn't care one single iota about your role responsibilities or performance. I didn't want to kick you sooner because I wanted to give you a chance to put the advice given into practice. You choose not to and as such were removed. The fact that it was the end of the dungeon was merely a coincidence. It wasn't something I had planned by the minute I queued up. And I stated this before (FOR THE RECORD) I did not actually initiate the vote. Either the DRG or SMN did.

if he was so bad they would have never made it through the dungeon. literally they were complaining he wasn't doing enough dps for them. neither story said he wasn't tanking just that he wasn't doing a proper rotation and losing dps over it making the run longer. he used flash to hold agro and used shield lob for dps cause he thought it was better than RoH combo.

What are you talking about? I literally stated that aggro was all over the place. That means mobs were loose and hitting everyone. He did not function at even the bare minimum for a tank.

No where in my post or this discussion has the tanks DPS been referenced so I don't know why you're bringing it up. Not only that, but dungeons don't even need a tank or 4 people. They are that trivially tuned, so yes had we 3 manned from the start we would have been fine.

The off putting part is when they kicked him, not that they did.

So to be 100% clear (and please respond to this) you would have preferred I said nothing, kicked him as soon as 5 minutes passed? Given him no time to try and improve or take advice and no feedback into why he was kicked?

You think that is less toxic? WoW... that's backwards to me.

The "when" is why I question who was really the troll. I'm sorry this happened to the OP. I hope the feelings don't linger.

See my response above to Ayer2015. Please respond.

This one's to Kaldea: are you telling me that it only dawned upon you to kick him right before the last boss? This is not a short dgn by any means and if that guy made things longer, that means there was AMPLE time to kick him.

That's what I don't get. Again, I'm not against the deicision to kick him nor am I disagreeing with not kicking at the start. It's just that, to illustrate what I mean, if you're ten minutes in and you just finished the second boss and you know that reaching the last one is gonna take another 5-10, why not kick him right at the second boss? It doesn't have to be specifically at that point but seems to me like a good point to kick someone who plays like that tank is at least in the middle of a run.

Please explain that.

Easily. I am a positive person. I believe in redemption and wanted to give the player as many opportunities as possible and as much advice as I could without slowing down the run even more and impacting the other player's time. I truly believe he would have come around and improved.

Unfortunately I was wrong. It was immediately at the last boss gate (loot was still being rolled on) that I decided in chat "I am almost 100% ok with kicking this tank and just 3 manning the boss". The others obviously agreed and one of them initiated a vote kick as soon as we were able.

This is a direct quote and you can specifically see I wasn't 100% on board with it. I wanted to help them. I just didn't want to hold up others and try and teach someone who clearly had no desire to be helped. I had hoped that this experience would teach the OP that you need to be accountable for your performance and then planned to reach out after the run and USING MY TIME (not others) to help them, as I'm a fairly good PLD (again, currently progressing god kefka).

If I was the OP I'd keep you on that blacklist. If you had a problem with him then you should have kicked him then and there, not waited until the last boss.

Just out of curiosity did you see my post response and choose to deliberately ignore it or did you just miss it?

Here's a link to it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4603144

Seriously.. Your tank. You will find a new group before they find another tank

We waited approx. 2 mins before a replacement tank showed up. We were mid final boss fight, before just wiping so they could come in and one shot it with no issues.

Any support I might have given you to kick the OP is nullified by this. You see it as punishment so the tank learns a lesson. I see it as abandoning someone who was being bullied and standing with the abusers. No way can I support such a decision in this particular circumstance.

Here's the thing though, the SCH didn't actually do much that I saw as vile until literally the very end, like approx 60s before we could kick (because of loot). I had already resolved myself at that point and didn't want to change it up just because of the SCH. A report would handle that just fine. Because he was bullied in no way shape or form absolve the OP of his previous actions.

Kaldea, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have kicked the tank, just that the timing (as other people said) was off. I also kind of agree with whoever said that you were taking the side of bullies, if the other two were being offensive and toxic to this tank. There's a time and a place for kicking, and leaving it right to the end makes you come across as petty and vindictive. You were right in kicking, it's the TIMING that is suspect.

While I understand the timing sucks, I didn't have much of a choice really. If I kicked sooner, he'd never have been given a chance to improve. It'd have also likely left him less frustrated and thus he'd likely not have made this post and thus learning nothing.

Mind you, while the DRG and SCH were toxic at the end, they were not throughout the entire dungeon. They're patience broke around the same time mine did. They responded obviously more harshly than I did, but their response does not absolve the OP of his actions.

First rule of tanking in mmo says: If team is not happy with you, you are more happy to leave them and force them waiting for a second tank another 30 years.

We waited exactly 2 mins to get a replacement. IN those 2 mins we were almost done 3 manning the boss and then wiped so the replacement tank could get in on the action. We 1 shot it with staggering ease and went about our day.

This. So much. With the bonuses, it is not hard to get to 50 while barely touching dungeons. And I do not find it impossible for no one to have said anything in that time. More than half the roulettes I participate in are dead silent even when people are obviously messing up.

For anyone wondering, I went to go look to see when Ultros was preferred. Jan 30th to Feb 19th. I'll leave it to the OP to confirm whether or not he has the Road to 60 buff or not though. If he wants...

He would still be a sprout though no?

He was not a spout, nor a returner sprout. I indicated that in my OP.

Sorry, but kicking before the final boss when their presence wouldn't have prevented the party from completing is griefing. If the party didn't like what was going on they could have dismissed them much earlier.

The lack of a tank wouldn't even have prevented us from completing. That's how trivial the dungeons are tuned.

I covered up above that dismissing them sooner would have been more toxic to them. They never would have learned why they were kicked and they never would have made this post and gotten help. You TRULY think it better to be kicked with no chance for improvement/redemption? How would YOU feel if you were playing poorly and people offered you tips than just flat out kicked you before giving you a chance to put those into practice? You truly think that is better?

It's TamTara HM. If at the 2nd boss they decided they were done he could have kept pulling so that they couldn't engage in abandon either. Or the chests were open. Were they able to initiate after the 2nd boss in the first place?

Say he never got kicked. He didn't make this thread, how would he learn? Say all three of them were vile (2 of 4 confirmed while one was complicit). What came of this but the OP having a)a bad experience and b) now learning he has much more to work on?

Instead his reaction is that his time was wasted. This entire thing is a fiasco. Eventually, people snap. Could the kicker have done it at a better time? Yes.

Maybe they were hoping they would get better until finally they snapped and the only way to have the OP know that something is -seriously wrong- is to kick. Otherwise they might just leave and you might never be able to tell them "Hey you are in serious need of improvement. Please let me help you."

Edit: OP, in the future, please make sure you get and equip fending accessories. Or not mix maiming and aiming and fending.

Bingo - 100%.

He ignored the party (and was supposedly somewhat rude to them to boot) who disagreed with his playstyle. Neither party was necessarily in the right, but neither were entirely wrong. This falls under "difference in playstyles" which the GMs do not get involved with.

He wasn't rude. I don't think I stated that in any of my posts. He just either ignored us or made a statement that was ignorantly inaccurate.

Since the group in question put up with this tank for the entire dungeon, kicking them at the end was really pointless. It accomplished nothing, really. If I was there I likely would have voted against it. But...they were in their right to do so. Whether it was ethically right or wrong is up for debate, but the GMs likely won't interfere because it's a difference in playstyles thing.

This post is DIRECT irrefutable proof that you're wrong. It wasn't pointless and it very clear accomplished my goal of hoping to see them improve.

All we know is what both parties have said, if this were a court case and say he was suing the other party members, either side would have to provide proof or witnesses, so far i've seen only 2 stories and no corroborating evidence to prove that one or the other was in the wrong.

Don't be so quick to judge either side without having all the evidence.

As I said before. I would gladly accept the OP's logs as I am 100% confident they'll absolve me and corroborate my story. I unfortunately logged out later and lost them. I didn't expect this to happen otherwise I would have saved everything 100%.

I think if you actually take the time to read the OP's posts and his responses to people and read mine, I'm fairly confident you could formulate an educated guess easily.

That's fine, the group was right to kick them. But it didn't really accomplish anything but make them wait for a tank.

We waited 2 minutes before finding a tank. We were mid final boss before wiping so the new tank could get in on the action.

The Scholar should've been kicked, not the tank.

They BOTH should have been kicked. Just because the SCH said some nasty stuff at the VERY end of the run, doesn't absolve the OP of his actions.

The entitlement...
It's so sad that people only focuses on OP's skill instead of the kick itself.

The kick was unnecessary. OP is a new player and we shouldn't expect perfect plays from new members, and you shouldn't expect that your "useful tips" can improve their skills in 1 minute.

The persons who kicked him are entitled people who think they're good at giving tips, but the kick itself proves otherwise.
Shame on them and people who deffend arbitrary kicks like these. We're giving a bad image to new players, and this thread stinks of entitlement.

What? OP was not a sprout nor was I expecting "perfect play". If you believe the play the OP showed even qualifies as minimum performance you'd be mistaken. I gave them tips and every opportunity to improve and they showed no interest. The kick was not arbitrary or entitled. It was flat out necessary and the fact this thread exists proves it.

But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

As I said before, if this was the case he would still be a sprout though right? He wasn't.

They kicked him right in front of the final boss, and I think that shows the DPS and healer true intentions. I mean, they cleared the boss without tank because they didn't need him, so the problem wasn't the tank himself, yet they kicked him.
They just wanted to prove how right they are and give him a lesson with a kick, "that'll show him, hah!".

My true intentions have been laid bare here for all to see. Don't insinuate something else when I'm here telling you exactly why I did it. You can read my other responses to people here for more context.

Just makes it sound like Kaldea pushing of the "I want to coach you" idea is just them trying to not sound so bad cause they had initiated the kick even though the other players were being quite rude from the sounds of it.
Either way the PLD needs to get good and Kaldea need not kick before the last boss unless it is for spiteful reasons, and if it is just own it don't muck around trying to look like the better person just makes you look worse.

Firstly, I truly 100% don't care how I "sound". I came here to tell the truth and dispel any misinformation. Many posts here can corroborate that is not my style to worry about how "positive" I sound.

Secondly, I was exceptionally clear why I kicked them at the end. It wasn't some spiteful or vengeful act. It wasn't something I decided the first second I zoned into the instance and I DID not actually initiate the kick (I was going too though, someone just beat me to it).

Less then a week actually. That buff is too op tbh.

But wouldn't you still be a sprout if he only played for a week? I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of being a sprout. I know that I've seen low level and high level sprouts and I've seen the returner sprouts.

Its a dungeon with 90 minute mark, if you feel a tank not spamming aoe all the time makes it impossible to run, then there is something wrong with you as a dps, because your dps probably socks also if you progress so slowly.
I doubt his party was any good as well, but it was easy for them to call him, instead of looking at themselves.

In no way shape or form did I state it was impossible. In fact quite the opposite. I stated that the tank was actually detracting from the success of the run. The DPS was fine and so was the healer who not only contributed meaningfully to DPS, but also kept 4 targets alive who were all simultaneously taking damage because the PLD wasn't doing his role.

Everything happens for a reason, they say. If they wouldn't have kicked him, we wouldn't have this thread right now filled with people teaching OP how to tank. So I think it was a positive outcome after all.

Bingo.

We dont know exactly what happened here. Maybe he was pulling only 1 group and the others were tanking, because they were pulling it themselves.
It happen to me several times, people pulled one or two groups on my face, because they want to force speed up the run.
He made a good decision of not taking a hate from these mobs, and i believe they were dying in progress of doing so, making the run slower than it supposed to be.

1 Flash and circle of scorn is more than enough to hold the mobs aggro before they die, and he said he used both of them, so problems with holding aggro should not be the case here, if anything its them pulling stuff on their own and you could say it by the kaldea post telling dungeons could be done without a tank, should we have any more questions here?
I can bet a buck they were pulling on their own.
We dont see any reasonable explanation of any of the sides, so both sides are guilty for that bad run.
So far the only plea against OP is that he used shield lob all the time, so they complained about his performance, so about his dps, probably having less impact on the run than them messing up mechanics or typing the keyboard.

You are making a staggering number of assumptions, NONE of which are actually true.

We waited for the tank to pull. Because his pulling method was simply pushing Shield Lob over and over until out of TP on a singular mob, any pulls > 1 mob aggro was on everyone else. We did not pull for the tank, nor were ANY of us dying due to pulling threat.

You owe me a buck. Post your discord info so I can PM you my paypal info. Thanks for the easy money.

[Kazgrel]

Probably less lenient.

Aurum is a pain, esp if you are an old school hobby tank like me. Back then I didn't like mass pulling and I actually waited for a few seconds for mobs (esp patrols) to get into position for controlled pulls.

Despite never losing aggro I was eventually called an idiot and kicked. That taught me that it's apparently better to rage-face AoE pull (and risk losing aggro on a mob or two) than have the audacity of waiting for 10 seconds for a patrol to get out of range.

I actually enjoy that room as a tank because I took pride in getting through that room pulling as few mobs as possible.

[ExKage]

Yeah I'm not surprised that if you had decided to initiate kick after the first boss that loot was open or he kept engaging. I've run into both a) players who would not loot or don't know how to so it waits the entire timer out or b) players who just keep running to pick up the next set (mainly tanks).

B is usually not bad because I like a constant flow of picking up groups vs stop and go stop and go a group.

I also wouldn't be surprised if you opted to not keep moving because the only other option is leaving and I hate leaving dungeons or sitting your ass down and just stop. People would rather grit their teeth and move then to just stop because you want to lose the weak link. Like I usually end up reporting someone -after- the duty ends instead of during it if I can because I don't want to contribute to further wasting of time.

[AnaviAnael]

OP, I see you're in a fairly large FC. Are there any PLD mains there that would be willing to mentor you? Or people that may be willing to run dungeons with you in a premade to help you get the basics down? Or, for that matter, would anyone here be willing to do some premade runs with the OP?

[Jijifli]

Sorry in advance for the book.

Cropping it so it's not another wall of text, but about the sprout thing. I believe it's both 168 hours of playtime AND completion of the HW story, not or. There is a way to hide your sprout though, and even a way to remove it early.

Sounds like OP hid his sprout. Not a good idea.

[Shouko]

As I said before. I would gladly accept the OP's logs as I am 100% confident they'll absolve me and corroborate my story. I unfortunately logged out later and lost them. I didn't expect this to happen otherwise I would have saved everything 100%.

I think if you actually take the time to read the OP's posts and his responses to people and read mine, I'm fairly confident you could formulate an educated guess easily..

All i'm saying is to people who're quick to judge not to be so, I don't really care who was in the wrong or who was in the right, i'm just here for popcorn basically. I do however think it's kind of a waste of time for the OP to come here instead of just putting it down in the tales from the duty finder like you did.