The general player base needs to improve

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The instances to "git gud" are already in place. The logical progression at level 70 should be Expert Roulettes > 24 Man raids > 8 man raids > EX primals >*Savage > Ultimate. It's just not tight enough in it's difficulty to demand the player to step up all the way from the EX primals step. 3 out of the 4 EX primals we had this expansion are laughing stock. In no way do they prepare you for whatever Savage will bring you.

Sadly, even Savage hasn't been immune to "laughing stock" status lest we never forget the absolute joke that was Alte Roite.

[MoroMurasaki]

Casual content is by definition not particularly challenging. Which is the opposite of what the OP thinks the game needs. So really I'm agreeing with you in a way. OPs definition of FF14 is not your definition. To answer OPs "problem," it's the dev's job to provide that "carrot." What you are describing is just a bunch of smaller carrots (in my view).

Sorry for my poor punctuation and sentence structure. My Duty Finder poped.

It happens. I was just legitimately unsure if I was missing an edit.

The thing is I don't think players need a measurable reward in order to want to improve assuming the requisite improvment isn't a huge stretch.

Let's use me as an example. In my previous post I talked about my fear of Savage content, feeling unprepared for it. Realistically even though I'm as prepared as someone who hasn't done it could be I am still not going to perform well in that enviroment without a lot of effort on my part because it is more things happening faster and that hurt you more than what I am accuatomed to.

It requires things like better awareness and reflexes, prefarably stronger gear and a willingness to optimize more.

Now apply that to someone that completes Expert roulette daily and then hears about the easy 340 weapon from Rabanastre. There is nothing in Expert roulette that prepares a player for Hashmal, not even a little. Someone who has only regularly had to do content on par with Kugane Castle isn't ready for that many one-shot mechanics, required movement and incoming damage.

If the steps in this ladder were closer together perhaps people who completed Expert roulette wouldn't be so lost in a 24man, or people like me who can comfortably complete EX primals wouldn't be so lost in Savage.

I circle back to the same theory - people are bad because they can be. I have seen people in Byakko doing under 2k on MNK. I've had cohealers in Rabanastre that spend an equal amount of time on the floor as they do standing up. They still get their clears though, despite being in content they couldn't hope to keep up with.

A better (or at least existant) difficulty curve would be such a positive change for this game. Right now it's more like gambling than strategy for some of these people - it isn't about having the skill to complete the fight but rather just a matter of queueing for said fight until they get a group that can drag them through.

Sadly, even Savage hasn't been immune to "laughing stock" status lest we never forget the absolute joke that was Alte Roite.

Oh Alte Roite...

I remember clearing that fight and thinking "Oh, this is Savage? Okay, I can totally do this"...

... then I got to O3S.

[KaivaC]

Ya I've mentioned in other post, I've done the first coil with my static(before nerf,not very hardcore), it was fun,
but after I tried XIV1.1x-1.2x, the "End game" thing isn't my objective when I play a MMO now,

I mean, you buy FF15 because you just want to fight the final boss & watch the ending CG movie & the staff roll?
guess not, you buy it because the stroy, because the contents in it,process is more important than the result.

I played very hardcore in WOW, because I want to know how good I can be when raiding, I've proven myself in WOW,I don't need to prove it again,
& I don't play MMO just for the gears or boss fights ,
I take the gears so I can win the next boss, if I don't raid, then highend gears mean nothing to me, I won't bother with it, ILV340 is already enough for me
if I just want to fight some boss, I will play Monster hunter, Nier, these games are a lot more fun than the heavily scripted battle in ARR.

I play MMO because the people,the community, the player-created events & contents,
but there's no such things in ARR, well.... then I play it for some rest, play it super casually,
I've played many games, XIV ARR is far from the worst , just not the real "Final Fantasy MMO" to me, a fake MMO

A fake MMO? What is a fake MMO? Is that a thing? Could've sworn that an MMO was massive multiplayer online...but define fake MMO? Oh...does that mean it's not WoW? Even though at present, FFXIV is more or less the 2nd top MMO on the market behind WoW? You're bringing up FF15, comparing it to my comments about endgame, but you're looking at my perspective the wrong way. I didn't join FFXIV solely for endgame - hell, I didn't even know what endgame was when I originally joined. I like endgame now because I enjoy the challenge, but it's not my only attraction to FFXIV. I enjoy endgame because I want to be able to say that I've cleared it. Maybe it is a little bit of proving myself, and maybe it is a little bit of pride, but to be able to say that I cleared certain content does indeed drive me.

Regardless, while I kind of get what you're saying, I'm still not sure what point you are trying to convey.

People being so acceptable people playing bad and get away with it, is one of the bigger reasons why it's still an issue for improvent. While I agree there is a difference between harrasing and telling people tips how to improve, there are too many players who loves to brush it off and say it's fine they way they play it. I know some people I helped clearing shinryu for and they did as good as tanks or just worse. The clear would never happened if the tank dps and healer dps wasn't as strong. This game can let you get away with 1-2 players being bad and the rest doing good, as long mechanics are done. I love to help people but I would like them to carry their own weight. I think it's unfair to help them clear content and they end up with same type of players and never kill the content, wondering why they can't. This happens too often.

Indeed. I have helped many other players in content, when I didn't even need to. I'm not one to leave hard fights if they pop up in the roulette. I'll stick around and do my best to help - it's when players quit because they are hoping for a carry that annoys me.

I repeatedly turn to the higher floors of PotD as my go-to example. Running with friends several weeks ago, we did aggressive chain pulls to speed through 50-100. That reckless play caught up with us around 110-120 and resulted in a wipe due to hitting a trap and being stun/sleep locked. I was honestly more impressed than disappointed because it was entirely our fault and the game slapped us for it. Now imagine if Expert dungeons worked in a similar facet—with priority mobs to focus down, traps and even patrol packs that could result in high outgoing damage. In many ways, PotD 101+ accomplished what dungeons rarely have: a solid difficulty curve.

That would be a nice change of pace. A good example of how expert runs should go, too.

We already have rab and shinryu, and on release they really weren't all that fun content to do the few times they popped up after, with appropriate ilvl. I really don't want launch rab and shin to be the standards for experts i have to do once per day. The easy content is nice because you aren't spending 45 min to an hour because your party keeps wiping at a particular boss. And apparently, even that level of content doesn't breed good players, since we still get all the complaints.

If you constantly get annoyed by others, just get a good FC and do everything in a static. Because I really don't think making this game harder will make players better.

Rab and Shinryu weren't that fun to some players, maybe, but there have been plenty of players (casuals, mind you), who enjoyed actually having to earn their win in content. Easy, faceroll content could be left in leveling dungeons, dungeons that are a part of MSQ, and trials roulette, whereas expert should actually be expert. I've said this before. It's called expert - why call it that and separate it from a level 70 queue when it's the exact same easy content that been's present in every other dungeon to this point? Why is there such a huge issue with having expert dungeons being actual expert dungeons?

I can't say I'm paired that with many awful players in dungeons or raids. Let's keep in mind job boost is a thing and a new player can skirt by to 70 with storyline and dailies pretty easily.

Unfortunately, yes, this is true. But even then...there are mechanics that show up on the way to 70 that some of these boosters somehow completely ignored.

Currently there just is not enough end game content for the player to want to be; or the justification for "git gud."
Great You got all the gear from Savage, you are i370. So what next? More of the same content. There is no goal after getting the item. To that end all the current content can be done just the same with i350. The drive in other mmo is PvP, "get better or get your stuff taken."

Maybe Eureka will bring back some of the drive needed to get better; but people are already declaring it a dud even before it's out. Other than Eureka the status quo formula is obviously not enough to drive people.

Add: It's not a player problem, it's a development problem.

For top level raiders and statics, this may be true. But for other players like myself who have hit a wall midway through the current raid tier, which is a lot of players by the way, there is still that goal of getting the clear before the next tier. Savage for a lot of folks is a goal, sure, but it's not THE goal. Yeah, it is true that a lot of raiders only sub just to clear the raid tier then move on, but what's wrong with that? What's wrong with some of the most visible players on twitch and youtube who only stream FFXIV for raids?

The big thing with the argument you are making is that you are saying there is no goal after clearing a raid...which is true if raiding is your only goal in the game. That applies only to a select set of individuals - particularly streamers. I am not amongst those individuals. Raiding is my biggest thing now, but I still enjoy many of the other facets of FFXIV. I enjoy mentoring, I enjoy just hanging around - there are plenty of things to do if those other things interest other players. If I completely cleared Sigmascape Savage tonight, I can promise you that I'd still have other things that would interest me, and I'm sure that applies to a lot of others as well.

[KerriganV]

After a few of the runs of Rab I have been in as of late, I am inclined to agree. It seems like a lot of these players have been or are used to being carried through content, and it may not be entirely their fault. When was the last time any of us did an unsyched primal run? I honestly don't remember. Usually when its zoned into for mentor roulette, people immediately bounce without even trying. If the player base is used to being unsyched and carried through that, then they stand little chance when things get hard. Not to say that that is the root of it, but it doesn't help, and is just one possible example. In the end though, its up to the player as to what kind of player they want to be, and most seem to take the lazy route instead of working to get really good at what they do, which in the end hurts because end-game content does not allow slackers. Them DPS checks be tight.

[AxlStream]

Sadly, even Savage hasn't been immune to "laughing stock" status lest we never forget the absolute joke that was Alte Roite.

I'm with and not with you on that one. I liked Alte Roite as an attempt to get fresh blood into the raiding community and invogorate it a little by making it less daunting. Although it back fired by inflating the ego of people who could clear it instead...

[DJaySaint]

Honestly my biggest issue is people who just refuse to use their jobs skills and in general don't know how to even play their job at all.

It's one thing to be like "omg you suck, you're not parsing 95% you should quit!" and insult others. But the amount of times I've been in an expert roulette, have a tank that pulls EVERYTHING, and get a Ninja who has apparently never heard of Death Blossom (or any other AoE skill on melee) and just got toxic attitudes when I asked them to use skills... is just insane. Literally since Stormblood came out, DPS have forgotten what AoE does. Nearly every single job in every single roulette. And when you ask someone, they get downright hostile about it. "You don't pay my sub" or "they are still being useful". Sorry, but no they aren't. Doing a single target combo on 1 mob out of 15 the tank pulled while the tank is allergic to defensive cooldowns and the healer is just STRUGGLING to keep that tank alive... you are not being useful by refusing to AoE and making it take FOREVER to kill the mobs in that pull.

I don't know why people enjoy being useless in duties and wear it like a badge of honor, but honestly I'm getting sick of running in to that attitude. Why would you not want to destroy everything in sight as a DPS? That is YOUR JOB. I don't know about you but I get all giddy inside when I Flare all the things and see explosions everywhere as a Black Mage.... while I see this Ninja just use Aeolian Edge and not even be able to keep Huton up.

Also the "first time" excuse. I totally get people have first times and might not know mechanics. Trust me, we all have to learn some time. But if you're level 70, you should still know how to play your job by now. It is still your JOB to press Cure. It is still your JOB to press Flash. It is still your JOB to just push your buttons and do damage regardless if you know the mechanics or not. When I was in an expert the other day and had a healer who didn't DPS just stand there while the tank died and go "sorry first time", I just shook my head. Like they weren't doing ANYTHING. You don't have to have run the dungeon 30 times to know as a healer "oh the tank's HP is low, I'll press Cure". This kind of behavior just irritates me.

So long story short, yes I agree the general player base needs to improve. I'm not even saying everyone needs to be 99% parses and be super heroes. But Jesus... press.... your..... damn.... BUTTONS. Why log on to a game and join something if you can't even be bothered to play it? Go watch Netflix and stop wasting other peoples' time and expect them to do it for you.

[HyoMinPark]

I will have to take some time to read the thread more thoroughly, but these have always been my thoughts when it came to player improvement: unless a person wants to improve, they will never improve. You cannot force someone to improve their play, just like you cannot force someone to care about whether or not they are wasting other people’s time. And that’s the reality of it all. I truly believe that the only ones who can change the “bad players” are the “bad players” themselves; no one else. If they lack said motivation to improve, you cannot force it to just manifest.

Maybe it would help to have a bit more challenge to content, but again, if people aren’t willing to rise to said challenge, then I’m afraid it won’t make much of a difference. I still remember all the cries for nerfs back when Weeping City first came out, and players wanted Ozma nerfed (and I think Forgall as well). And Final Steps of Faith. Weeping City and Final Steps were actually challenging content, at least compared to previous 24-mans and MSQ trials. But people didn’t want to put forth effort to improve; instead, they would rather it be nerfed. Perhaps I’m a bit jaded, but I think that’s what would happen if the devs did add in more challenging MSQ/midcore content. People who don’t want to rise the the challenge simply won’t; they’ll just cry about it...

Instead, I try to spend my time playing with friends as opposed to randoms. I tend to stay silent in duties, because I have gotten tired of being called “rude” or “an elitist” for just telling someone something basic like “AOE large pulls; you do more damage” or “Try to refresh Straight Shot every 30 seconds for a critical hit buff; Bards love crit and you’ll get tons of procs during your songs that way”. So, I generally do not give advice anymore. I have a hard time staying silent when people are being outright hostile in chat because that gets us nowhere, and is just a waste of time; and I do have a difficult time not telling DPS to AOE, though I just bite my tongue anymore to avoid confrontation, because they immediately get defensive and hostile about it. Of course, people get hostile about anything. Last person I had get that way was a NIN in Temple of the Fist who died because they stood in AOEs, and then called me a “shit mentor” for not healing them in time even though I tried to Benediction them (but, of course, Bene delay, and it went off on me instead). Well, try avoiding the pretty orange circles on the grounds next time, sweetheart.

Truth be told, maybe I’m just a bit too old for confrontations like that anymore.

[cardgrey]

As a new player to 14 from 11 I’d say the main issue is indeed lack of challenge. I’ll point out your joke of a trial to make relics it’s laughable. While I do enjoy this game my thoughts on this is they need to stop scripted encounters and go back to rng fights cause u can’t predict what and when stuff happens and if u lack skills u will die lol

[DJaySaint]

I tend to stay silent in duties, because I have gotten tired of being called “rude” or “an elitist” for just telling someone something basic

Exactly the same. But when you don't talk people say you're rude. You just can't win. People get offended at advice, offended if you talk, offended if you don't... no matter what everyone is offended all the time. At least with not talking it's easier to just turn off party chat and ignore them... but I struggle so hard when I see DPS who just refuse to AoE.

I joined an in progress Garuda Extreme with Mentor Roulette before and watched the first pull fail, try to tell people how to do the fight and someone just goes "shut the F*** up we know what we're doing". Yeah.... clearly because I had to come to an in progress one that is still wiping. You totally know what you're doing *rolls eyes*

[HyoMinPark]

Exactly the same. But when you don't talk people say you're rude. You just can't win. People get offended at advice, offended if you talk, offended if you don't... no matter what everyone is offended all the time.

Basically this. I’ve gotten called a “bad mentor” for not speaking up in chat when someone is apparently struggling, whether or not the struggling individual asked for help or refused it; usually it’s by a bystander. Sometimes it’s for mechanical advice, which I will generally give. Sometimes it’s about a tank or healer struggling, and I suppose I am supposed to magically make them not struggle? I used to give job advice on jobs I knew very well, but I stopped doing that because people didn’t want me “telling them how to play”, even though it was just simple things. Meh. I took my crown off for a while to just not deal with it. It’s damned if you, damned if you don’t. Hence why I stick to groups with friends nowadays. Or cap tomestones via other methods, lol.