The general player base needs to improve

[Yeol]

There are two students, student 1 and student 2.
Student 1 and 2 are both passing their lectures. However, student 1 is passing with high grades. While student 2 is passing with lower grades. Student 2 is happy by just passing and don't care about getting better grades.

It is exactly the same situation in-game. Some players are happy with just clearing content, while others want to clear content with high performance and try to do better every time.

The only difference, your performance in-game will affect the entire team.

You cannot force people to play on the same level as you, and you cannot make them better players by giving them harder content. They might just quit or wait until they overgear content to clear it. They might as well ask for content to be nerfed.

The difference between a good player and a bad player is the time they spent learning.
If the player has no motivation to search/watch/read guides and learn from them, they won't get better.

To those who say that the player base is not bad. The dev team themselves have acknowledged that the player base is, in fact, performing below their standards. Which explains why they are trying to make content easier, and even trying to simplify rotations.
So just because you had an expert with no deaths/mistakes, it doesn't mean that every player in that party was good (I don't want to go into deep details about this).

In the end, everyone is playing to have fun. But don't put yourself in situations you are not suited for. By doing so, you're ruining other players fun.

[Ryaz]

How do you manage to always make such quantum leaps? Right now, Expert dungeons are so braindead easy, if you did only small pulls, you wouldn't even need a healer, let alone cooldowns. I think making them a little harder than that won't lead to mass vote abandons.

I can attest to this. Had a healer drop in Hells Lid before we even started. The three of us cleared our way to the first boss without one by keeping the pulls small with a paladin tank.

[Kewitt]

I can farm byakko easy, my hubby can get clear. He has see enrage a few times but I will not role with him on savage content.
He plays for fun and doesn't want to stress over a game.
He should be able to this week or next. With gear. But buy then the good players will move on.
My raid group has seen enrage on O5S but some people don't take it seriously. But I'm ready to pug it.

But I like the challenge others don't you and others just don't have the skill and never will that is why gear makes context easier.

[Gemina]

Want to know something I find funny in this game? That in casual content, non-telegraphed attacks are usually more punishing when failing to dodge than a telegraphed one. Examples would be Cyclops type mobs with their 360 degree swings, gaze attacks, and 'prey' type mechanics. These are the mechanics in casual content, that usually takes a player out. Now to add to that, what I see take players out the most in difficult content, is failure to dodge a telegraphed attack. This isn't a dungeon telegraph that you can stand in, or be late to move out of and your healer will simply patch you up. This is if you're in it, you're dead until the time comes that you're over-geared enough to survive it. Want to take a guess at what kind of mechanics in difficult content I have seen players dodge the most? You guessed it, the non-telegraphed ones.

It's almost like the dev team decided that if players can dodge a non-telegraphed attack, then a big circle actually telling them damage is coming is no problem. Nopee! HM dungeons is a great example of how mechanics meant to punish you can be completely ignored once you're over-geared. I often hear that HM dungeons are easier than their NM versions, but mechanic wise, this is not true. You are just so over-geared that it doesn't matter. No different than running an EX primal unsynced with one other buddy.

Getting to the point to avoid an overly verbose post, it's not that the mechanics aren't there to challenge players. I think we can all admit that when mechanics matter, they pour it on like there is no tomorrow, and that is why when they do, we witness players drop like flies. I think the problem is an elephant we can't consume in one setting. It has to do with how difficulty is introduced, how over-geared we're allowed to be, compensation from the playerbase by making an effort to learn outside punishing mechanics, complacency and patience amongst veterans, and so forth.

Also, is it really a problem? In the grand scheme do we really want any joe-schmoe to be able to walk into difficult content and not get punished for failure to avoid an attack? I don't think so. I think it is just fine as-is and when a player drops to a telegraphed attack, I love to think, "This isn't the minor leagues, buddy. You hit a fly ball or a grounder here, you're effin out!"

[KaivaC]

What quantum leap? I healed Shin and Rab at launch, and I went into them probably 30 times or so in two weeks at the patch start. I saw a tremendous amount of vote abandons, and a lot of them took 45 minutes from all the deaths. And what's the point of making expert easier or even equal to both of those, since we already had them and they didn't seem to achieve the goals people want. Making expert a tiny bit harder wont really help. The only thing that helps is making it hard enough that they have to put significant effort to beat the thing, like most relevant ex primals.

Because it's called EXPERT. Good grief, you act like turning up the difficulty immediately means that all content is going to get harder as a result. Quite a few of us have said that the difficulty increases should only apply in EXPERT dungeons. Not in dungeons that you are required to go through as part of the storyline, but completely optional dungeons - tune up the difficulty and make better rewards out of them. There are plenty of other options out there. You say that making expert harder won't help...but Hells' Lid and Fractal are a bit of a step up from Kugane and the Temple. Yet, you're so opposed to this and wanting to stick only to your argument that even you failed to notice it. THIS is what we were talking about - gradual increases in difficulty for optional content. Shinryu should be the top of the line as the highest difficulty should get for casual content. Those people who vote abandoned are part of the problem that we have today because, hey, while the dungeons leading up to it failed to convey proper difficulty, you actually had to earn your victory if you wanted to unlock the other stuff. The first month after launch, I saw a lot of vote abandons either, and I shook my head at those people who quit just because they didn't want to help other players get the clear.

Shinryu is a huge wake up call to the playerbase. But in no way should expert dungeons immediately go to that - never said that, yet you keep implying that. We've said multiple times that it should be gradual. You don't like that...but, I mean, hell, it's optional content, you don't HAVE to do it. It's not a part of MSQ. The devs usually add other stuff that is not a part of the EXPERT line, either. We are just wanting expert to feel like that - if players are unable to do expert dungeons as they start stepping up in difficulty, then they don't have to do it either.

So stuck on your argument and wanting to disagree with anything that even remotely promotes a difficulty increase that you were too blind to see that Fractal Hard was already an increase, though small, in difficulty.

[Stanelis]

Snip.

The playerbase aren't tools to be used to your own satisfaction in order to complete content. If you re unhappy with the level of the players you're matched with then maybe it is time to start your own guild and see if people are willing to play with you.

[HoodRat]

The playerbase aren't tools to be used to your own satisfaction in order to complete content. If you re unhappy with the level of the players you're matched with then maybe it is time to start your own guild and see if people are willing to play with you.

We aren't tools for the playerbase to be used to their own satisfaction in order to complete content. If they're unhappy with the expectations of the players they're matched with then maybe it is time to start their own guild and see if people are willing to play with them.

I love it when people use easily reversible arguments.

[KaivaC]

snip

Ok...?

I actually like your reply...that is siggy material. But this doesn't apply to me. I don't even know where to begin to respond to this. I never said I was unhappy with anything. I don't 'use' the playerbase for anything, I help other players that I'm grouped with if they need/want the help. To be fair, let's clear the air right now - I don't 'need' the playerbase to get better just so I can clear. I am more than capable of getting the clears through a party finder should I choose to do it. I don't need to be carried through anything. I don't want to be carried through anything. Much like many of us who do participate in endgame content, I will spend the time to learn a fight and then I will clear it.

I want the playerbase in general to get better, not for my sake, but because I feel that it can and should get better when it counts.

I want an open discussion on this, which spawned this discussion thread. Mayhap before you make a reply like that, you actually read many of the replies I have made recently. It's not hard to click on my profile link and look at just my responses.

There are two students, student 1 and student 2.
Student 1 and 2 are both passing their lectures. However, student 1 is passing with high grades. While student 2 is passing with lower grades. Student 2 is happy by just passing and don't care about getting better grades.

It is exactly the same situation in-game. Some players are happy with just clearing content, while others want to clear content with high performance and try to do better every time.

The only difference, your performance in-game will affect the entire team.

You cannot force people to play on the same level as you, and you cannot make them better players by giving them harder content. They might just quit or wait until they overgear content to clear it. They might as well ask for content to be nerfed.

The difference between a good player and a bad player is the time they spent learning.
If the player has no motivation to search/watch/read guides and learn from them, they won't get better.

To those who say that the player base is not bad. The dev team themselves have acknowledged that the player base is, in fact, performing below their standards. Which explains why they are trying to make content easier, and even trying to simplify rotations.
So just because you had an expert with no deaths/mistakes, it doesn't mean that every player in that party was good (I don't want to go into deep details about this).

In the end, everyone is playing to have fun. But don't put yourself in situations you are not suited for. By doing so, you're ruining other players fun.

Sorry, I am just now getting around to this, but I love this comment. +1

[Stanelis]

We aren't tools for the playerbase to be used to their own satisfaction in order to complete content. If they're unhappy with the expectations of the players they're matched with then maybe it is time to start their own guild and see if people are willing to play with them.

I love it when people use easily reversible arguments.

My point was that I find it incredible that nowadays people actually have expectations on the level of players the encounter randomly with matchmaking tools. If you're unhappy with the average level, just do what people have been doing since the beginning of MMORPGs : build your own guild and even teach people. I mean people aren't NPC, so either deal with it or actually build your own group of players. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that players you encounter randomly will generally play less well than handdpicked people, that's why generally people join guilds to complete the hardest content.

I want the playerbase in general to get better, not for my sake, but because I feel that it can and should get better when it counts.

It is not for you to have expectations related to the playerbase. Players come with all skills level, like it or not. And aren't playing for your own satisfaction.

[KaivaC]

It is not for you to have expectations related to the playerbase. Players come with all skills level, like it or not. And aren't playing for your own satisfaction.

Oh yes...I shan't be allowed to have expectations. Because heavens forbid anybody who has expectations of the player base is in the wrong.

Obviously every player has different skill levels. I'm not sure why you keep saying playing for my satisfaction when I haven't said anything of the like. Second time you've said that thus far. Even when I just literally said that isn't the case.